4 at Riviera

[Matt_Cohn]

Only 15% of the field at the Genesis is hitting the 4th green in regulation. Balls that land short typically stick in the kikuyu fairway, and balls that land on the green typically go over. I'm curious if folks think the club should change the fairway grass on that hole to bermuda (or some other surface) to allow players to land the ball short of the green and bounce it on. For context, Riviera's tees are bermuda, but everything else in the general area is kikuyu.

Click here for the poll.

[mike_malone]

Cantley hit the shot that I think works—-a fade.

[Ben Sims]

There’s almost no holes that these guys can’t hit sky high shots and be rewarded. 4 at Riv is an exception obviously (unless a big high fade). I don’t care how grabby Kikuyu is, if they hit it low enough it’ll release off that front apron and feed. But I don't see many lower shots in there.


I love this debate for what it’s worth. I’ll argue for the current version of #4 at Riv forever. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I know I hit one in there that released and fed round. They just need to learn to reduce their swing speed, peak height and spin; and then it works.

[Tim_Weiman]

There’s almost no holes that these guys can’t hit sky high shots and be rewarded. 4 at Riv is an exception obviously (unless a big high fade). I don’t care how grabby Kikuyu is, if they hit it low enough it’ll release off that front apron and feed. But I don't see many lower shots in there.


I love this debate for what it’s worth. I’ll argue for the current version of #4 at Riv forever.

Ben,


I played Riviera a couple times about 30 years ago when I was about 8 HCP. If I remember correctly I made one par and one bogey and thought the hole was challenging but fun.


My best recollection is we played from about 210-215 yards and I hit 3 iron. Unless something has changed, I say leave it alone.

[Scott Warren]

“It doesn’t work for the shot they want to hit” is different to “it doesn’t work”.


Whereas 10 green doesn’t really seem to work at the speeds they get the greens to for the Genesis Invitational, at 4 I think the issue is simply that the players aren’t hitting the right shot.


I hit a drawn four-wood when I played Rivera and the ball released out to the middle of the green just fine.

[David Ober]

There’s almost no holes that these guys can’t hit sky high shots and be rewarded. 4 at Riv is an exception obviously (unless a big high fade). I don’t care how grabby Kikuyu is, if they hit it low enough it’ll release off that front apron and feed. But I don't see many lower shots in there.


I love this debate for what it’s worth. I’ll argue for the current version of #4 at Riv forever.

This. A stinger-cut to the front right that lands relatively close to the green, or a stinger draw that lands further right and a bit farther back.

Have played the hole six or seven times over the years. Used to be a draw 2h for me from the back tees and now it's a low-cut 3w or driver (depending on the tee) that lands short and scoots on. Don't think I have made a bogey there yet, amazingly.

Of course, when we usually play it, the greens aren't 13.5 and rock yard, but if you land it shot, that doesn't really affect your shot.

And ... what's wrong with a par 3.5? One of my favorite holes in golf, the par 3.5 9th at Lakeside is  also virtually unholdable in most conditions.

[Ben Sims]

More social media anger over the hole this morning. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the “great shots aren’t rewarded” argument on *this* hole (10 is another debate entirely). So many of those “great shots” are sky high draws landed two yards short (no release) or on the surface (too much release).


I think the 4th at Riv is pretty straightforward. Wanna hit a draw? Better flight it down quite a bit and land it short. Wanna hit it high? Better hit a big fade like Cantlay did Saturday and Tiger did Thursday.


Am I taking crazy pills?

[David Ober]

More social media anger over the hole this morning. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the “great shots aren’t rewarded” argument on *this* hole (10 is another debate entirely). So many of those “great shots” are sky high draws landed two yards short (no release) or on the surface (too much release).


I think the 4th at Riv is pretty straightforward. Wanna hit a draw? Better flight it down quite a bit and land it short. Wanna hit it high? Better hit a big fade like Cantlay did Saturday and Tiger did Thursday.


Am I taking crazy pills?

You most certainly are not. Can't stand the "good shots aren't rewarded crap." A "good shot" on THIS HOLE, does not land on the damn green.

[V. Kmetz]

superb hole as is.... need more like it

[David Ober]

superb hole as is.... need more like it

Totes.

[Matt_Cohn]

It feels unlikely that everybody on the PGA TOUR is playing that hole wrong but somehow the GCA treehouse knows better than they do!



From a pro’s respective, a high shot there will generally finish between just short and just long. A low shot brings both way short and way long much more into play.


Does anyone have access to the Shotlink map of where all the tee shots finish on that hole?

[Ben Sims]

It feels unlikely that everybody on the PGA TOUR is playing that hole wrong but somehow the GCA treehouse knows better than they do!

Maybe….My guess is they have a stock shot for that distance and can eliminate an unwanted result by just hitting their stock trajectory and number. It’s all about dispersion and these guys all know what it is with each club.


That said, I saw Woods and Cantlay both hit big high fades on different days and get a positive result. I watched Xander Schauffele hit the lowest shot I saw all week today with a slight draw and it hopped once in the kikuyu fairway and fed the length of the green leaving him a 30 foot putt to todays pin.


I wonder if this hole was a 560 yard par 5 and the last 230 yards of the hole was the exact same as it sits now, if it would get as much grief as it does.

[Sean_A]

I will stick my hand up. Fairways near greens should ideally be similar in firmness. Doesn’t make sense to me to for two similar shots to react wildly different depending on fairway or green. I can understand weather causes problems, but not intentionally selecting a grass which creates this situation.

Ciao

[Mark Kiely]

Here's Adam Schenk's vote:
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-pro-asks-tiger-woods-to-fix-terrible-hole-at-riviera/amp

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Has Riviera always had Kikuyu grass or did they switch to it at some time for maintenance reasons?

[Matt Kardash]

I remember Whistling Straits getting criticized during the PGA on this website because the approaches are bent instead of fescue like the rest of the fairway. When a player would play short it would not release onto the green as one would hope.
Why is that same recipe at Riviera ok though?


Personally whether a course plays firm or soft I prefer the condition to be as uniform as possible. The idea that landing on the green means the ball bounces 40 feet, but lands a foot short and it plugs just seems less than ideal to me.

[Andrew Harvie]

I played Riviera about a month ago and I didn't find the hole all that impossible, but it was probably the single hardest swing on the golf course. I hit a hybrid up the right, fairly lower, but it didn't get to the green. It still ran, but just got to the front edge.


the TOUR will never hit the low-running shot around the bunker because it leaves the possibility to have the long bunker shot with the green running away, so they'll always take the number and if it goes long, they'll try to get it up and down. It's just a percentage play, but they'll complain regardless because they feel like they should be able to hit that shot on any hole, anywhere.


I also didn't find the Kikuyu all that bad, much easier to chip off than dormant Bermuda, but it would be better to have something a bit firmer so some of the slopes around Riv could be used again.

[Kalen Braley]

A Stat pointed out:

The 4th hole at Riviera finishes the week with a green in regulation percentage of 15.4%. That is the most difficult green to hit in any PGA Tour event for a single week since the 6th at Royal Birkdale at the 2008 Open (13.7%).

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/pga-tour-pro-asks-tiger-woods-to-fix-terrible-hole-at-riviera/ar-BB1iw8ke?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=89eb94b74694486f805a0a3e4b4db88e&ei=10

[Michael Felton]

I will stick my hand up. Fairways near greens should ideally be similar in firmness. Doesn’t make sense to me to for two similar shots to react wildly different depending on fairway or green. I can understand weather causes problems, but not intentionally selecting a grass which creates this situation.

Ciao

Played many a winter in England where the approaches were wet and soft and the greens were frozen. Made for challenging golf!


This article from Golf Digest: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/riviera-country-club-fourth-hole seems to imply that the kikuyu has this "too soft" problem at this time of year. I have no clue if that's the case or not, but it may explain why people have played the course and felt it wasn't a problem.


I do think there's a little bit of enjoying watching the pros suffer going on. It seems a little tricked up to have a hole where you can't land it on or land it short. Hitting the lower running shot might be possible, but there's a huge amount of luck involved in that - you can't possibly know how it's going to bounce/skid when it lands so you can't control that shot if the grass is like that. I can't imagine that was the original intent there either.

[Ben Sims]

How high should we hit a shot and still expect it to release off fairway height grass? How soft were the approaches at Riv the week after an atmospheric river hit CA?

[Garland Bayley]

This caught my attention because Tom highlights the hole in The Anatomy of a Golf Course. He discusses it in the chapter "Design and the Player" which he starts off quoting George Thomas with "The strategy of the golf course is the soul of the game. ..."

He discusses the hole immediately following his discussion of feeding the ball in on the ground from the right on Westward Ho #9, which is a hole that at one time he listed in his list of template holes he would consider building versions of. He discusses landing points for a draw aimed to the right side of the green and a fade aimed to the right side of the green and how the landing points need to differ.

When it comes to members of this website, Mr. Trap Draw himself (David Ober) seems to be the best authority to comment on this hole. David specializes in "hitting all kinds of shots because he finds that to be the most fun."

[Jon Sweet]

My experience is that the better the player is, the less quirk and rub of the green they want in a course.  Often the best players hate anything that I love about courses.  Blind shots, reverse camber fairways, uneven bounces.  They want to hit it a certain number and just have the ball stop.  Riviera is by far the best course on tour, and if 16 out of 100 managed to hit the green, it means it can be done.  As good as these guys are, manage your miss in the right spot and get up and down.  You are not entitled to hit the green in regulation.  Just the same as you are not entitled to a two putt simply for hitting the surface.

[Joel_Stewart]

How high should we hit a shot and still expect it to release off fairway height grass? How soft were the approaches at Riv the week after an atmospheric river hit CA?

Its not that the approaches are soft, its the kikuyu is sticky and unpredictable.

[AChao]

How high should we hit a shot and still expect it to release off fairway height grass? How soft were the approaches at Riv the week after an atmospheric river hit CA?

Its not that the approaches are soft, its the kikuyu is sticky and unpredictable.

What Joel said ... It’s also changed some through time because of equipment.  Also, expectations have changed.  In the past, more fairway woods were used off the tee.