[Tom Mills]

Hello all,


I was just wondering whether anyone here is an expert on the legend that is Bernard Darwin? Failing that, does anyone know who is the go to person for Darwin?


Thanks in advance!


Tom Mills
Cookie Jar Golf

[Simon Barrington]

Stephen Proctor would be a very good start

[/size][size=inherit]@SProctorGolf on X[/size]

[Bill Shamleffer]

Jeff Silverman edited a Darwin collection (Bernard Darwin on Golf), 20 years.  Not sure if he did much research into Darwin, or just his collected writings.

[Niall C]

Tom


What is it you are looking for ?


Niall

[Tom Mills]

Wondering whether someone much more intelligent than I would join the podcast as a guest to shed some light on the great mans life.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Stephen Proctor would be a very good start

I would second this, and can add some more detail. Stephen Proctor and Jim Hartsell have a new podcast about golf literature called the Duffer's Literary Companion, and their first episode discusses Darwin at length.

[Jeff Segol]

You want to talk to David Normoyle. He used to be on staff at the USGA Museum. He now works as a consultant to clubs trying to put together their historical information. He wrote both a master's thesis and a doctoral dissertation at Cambridge on Darwin. He's also married to former LPGA golfer and TV analyst Dottie Pepper.

[Adam Lawrence]

I've thought for years that I would like to write Darwin's biography -- naturally I came across him A LOT during my Colt research -- but I think I have concluded that it is simply too big a job.

[Jeff Segol]

I've thought for years that I would like to write Darwin's biography -- naturally I came across him A LOT during my Colt research -- but I think I have concluded that it is simply too big a job.

Dick Verinder down at Dormie House press in Texas told me at one point that he was thinking of doing a bibliography of all of Darwin's work, accompanied by commentary articles. Unfortunately, I think there was a flood or something where they were working, and he's no longer publishing. That's too bad, because his books were a nice addition to what was published when Darwin was living.

[Richard Fisher]

David Normoyle is an obvious choice (disclaimer, he is an old friend, whose Cambridge Master's thesis on Darwin I examined back in the day) with lots of media experience and Dick Verinder knows a great deal about BD's published legacy (and has of course reissued a lot of BD material under his own imprint)

[BCrosby]

I've thought for years that I would like to write Darwin's biography -- naturally I came across him A LOT during my Colt research -- but I think I have concluded that it is simply too big a job.

It would be a huge job, particularly when you consider that Darwin wrote a fair bit on non-golf topics. For example, in his time he was considered an expert on Charles Dickens.


Bob

[Richard Fisher]

Always important to remember that BD was a gun for hire, as a writer. I possess copies of e.g. Darwin on The English Public School, British Clubs and (my personal favourite) the Southern Railway in Wartime. He also wrote about the great cricketer WG Grace (the most towering sporting shade of them all, according to BD) and contributed numerous fourth leaders on all sorts of topics to his principal employer, The Times.

[Niall C]

Always important to remember that BD was a gun for hire, as a writer. I possess copies of e.g. Darwin on The English Public School, British Clubs and (my personal favourite) the Southern Railway in Wartime. He also wrote about the great cricketer WG Grace (the most towering sporting shade of them all, according to BD) and contributed numerous fourth leaders on all sorts of topics to his principal employer, The Times.

He also wrote a book on John Gully, the 19 century prizefighter. As you say, he was a gun for hire. When you read some of his columns, there isn't always a lot of substance but they are so beautifully written.


Niall

[Simon Barrington]

He also wrote a book on John Gully, the 19 century prizefighter. As you say, he was a gun for hire. When you read some of his columns, there isn't always a lot of substance but they are so beautifully written.

Niall

Yes, Niall that's a fair comment, and is also a compliment.


I think his ability to express himself so well in the written word meant he was asked above others (who may have even had more knowledge on the subject in hand) as the editors knew they would get great copy.
 
So if depth and accuracy were to be the sole arbiters of his writings, and they may have been lacking, then he was a victim of his own erudite success!

[Tony_Muldoon]

A little spice to all this hagiography. 

Its a long time since I read it, but his biography of Braid is ...not his finest work.
I didn't feel I learnt much about the man or his golf architecture. 
A missed opportunity? Perhaps I need to go back to it?

[Simon Barrington]

A little spice to all this hagiography. 

Its a long time since I read it, but his biography of Braid is ...not his finest work.
I didn't feel I learnt much about the man or his golf architecture. 
A missed opportunity? Perhaps I need to go back to it?

Concur, it is a nice read and deferrent to a man he clearly respected.

But, little about his golf architecture work.

With one very important exception, his description of Braid's use of Sherlock Holmes-like "parallel instances" in his work was spot on.

Cheers

[Niall C]

I think the issue with the Braid biography is that Darwin likely didn't have much enthusiasm for the subject. I get the impression that he respected Braid rather than liked him. I suspect that was due to Braid's humble beginnings and him being a pro. For all that Darwin was a wonderful writer, he was also a snob (IMO).


Niall

[Richard Fisher]

Niall
Don't quite agree about Darwin and Braid (although completely agree that Darwin very much believed in the old amateur/professional class distinctions!) BD played quite a lot of golf at Walton with e.g. WG Grace and Lord Riddell and Braid, and always expressed the utmost enthusiasm for JB, both as a golfer and as a man ( the member of the Triumvirate about whom BD has least to say often seems to me Harry Vardon). Although he clearly revered John Ball more than any of them (see the essay in Some Towering Shades).


The relative lack of interest in Braid as architect is, in fairness, far from unique to BD. Reading the comprehensive multi-author general surveys of golf like the Badminton or later Lonsdale volumes, there seems to be a single chapter on 'Famous Courses' but that is it - much more on the Humours of the Game etc etc. This is one of the reasons why Dickinson's A Round of Golf Courses (1951) is so important - not just for its own (great) merits but because it may be the first book published on this nationwide theme in the UK since Darwin's own celebrated volume of 1910. I may have missed something obvious but can anyone think of any others (not including Dr Mack's little book etc?)?

[Simon Barrington]

Richard, Thank you for the book recommendation (Dickinson), just ordered a copy on-line.

I believe you are right.
I think Niall's comments are very valid too, for newspaper articles commissioned by his editors.

The Braid Biography was self-generated and I believe driven by a deep affection.
I know that Stephen Proctor is of that view too, and he's read far more Darwin than most, and certainly I.

[Niall C]

Richard


I agree about your Vardon comment. Very few of BD's books seem to have an index (Between the Wars is one that does) so hard to go hunting for things he specifically says about Vardon. I did have a look through the chapter headings of his 3 "reminiscences" books to see if I could find a likely chapter and found "Some Golfers of My Time" (Chapter 9) in Life is Sweet Brother where he discusses various golfers including JH Taylor and Braid. Vardon gets a mention in passing (BD considered him the best of the 3) but isn't a subject of discussion as such. By contrast he waxes lyrical about Taylor and less so about Braid.


On reflection that might be less about snobbery (no one would call Taylor privileged) and more about Taylor having a more engaging character. Either way, BD's Braid book still seems fairly workmanlike in comparison to his essays, but again that might have more to do with the length of the work.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall
Don't quite agree about Darwin and Braid (although completely agree that Darwin very much believed in the old amateur/professional class distinctions!) BD played quite a lot of golf at Walton with e.g. WG Grace and Lord Riddell and Braid, and always expressed the utmost enthusiasm for JB, both as a golfer and as a man ( the member of the Triumvirate about whom BD has least to say often seems to me Harry Vardon). Although he clearly revered John Ball more than any of them (see the essay in Some Towering Shades).


The relative lack of interest in Braid as architect is, in fairness, far from unique to BD. Reading the comprehensive multi-author general surveys of golf like the Badminton or later Lonsdale volumes, there seems to be a single chapter on 'Famous Courses' but that is it - much more on the Humours of the Game etc etc. This is one of the reasons why Dickinson's A Round of Golf Courses (1951) is so important - not just for its own (great) merits but because it may be the first book published on this nationwide theme in the UK since Darwin's own celebrated volume of 1910. I may have missed something obvious but can anyone think of any others (not including Dr Mack's little book etc?)?

A Round of Golf Courses may be my favourite golf book. That is all.

Ciao

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