James Braid's Birthday - Favourite Courses he was involved with?

[Ken Moum]

Everyone had to put food on the table and grow the game after all!

 


That makes some of JK's trolls look like the work of an amateur

[Simon Barrington]

Everyone had to put food on the table and grow the game after all!

 
That makes some of JK's trolls look like the work of an amateur

Oops did I 1) overstep or 2) get cancelled...


Happy to delete, apologise or whatever ...

[Sean_A]

I have found courses where Braid and Colt worked together, Braid & Vardon, and many where he made alterations, remodels, extensions and re-bunkering of others work. And vice versa.

Simon welcome to the board and this is an excellent start.

Can you give examples of where Braid and Colt worked "together".  I am aware of many courses where they made sequential visits but wasn't aware of them working together?
 I'm guessing this is post WW1? I may have something for you?

Writing as proud member of 2 courses where he worked magic.

Thank you Tony, very kind.


The single course I was referring to (for the Braid/Colt combo) was Bishops Stortford (and I will follow in some, perhaps too much, detail as Adam also has asked effectively the same question)


George Payne's superb Trilogy "The Divine Fury of James Braid - Vol 3" notes that Sir Walter Gilbey (of the Gin company) originally commission Braid's cousin, Douglas Rolland to lay out an 18-hole course c.1906/7.


The Club also paid James Braid for a visit and advice in February 1909, Carter & Co provided the seeds and the course was opened on 11th June 1910.


One newspaper report noted "the course covered 140 acres, laid out by Colt and Braid and the holes varied from 130-500 yards, which were liberally studied with bunkers of various types."


Another attributed the layout solely to Braid.


'Golf Illustrated' reported the "course laid out by James Braid but also that evidence of the work of Mr. H.S. Colt in bunker and hazard designing are seen at several of the holes."


So, exactly what each of Rolland, Braid and Colt designed is therefore not entirely clear. (Note - Rolland had apparently fallen on tough times in the period concerned.)




John Moreton's "James Braid and his Four Hundred Golf Courses" notes:


"Golf Illustrated" March 1909 - James Braid the Open Champion, visited the course last week, at the invitation of the committee, and expressed his satisfaction wih the design of the course, and with the work as far as it has progressed.


Not sure if the committee was having a crisis of confidence in Rolland's design or that they had already engaged Braid for a redesign, we know he was paid for the visit.


Moreton goes on to note that the tees and greens had to be reseeded in 1908, so evidently there were problems.


The Opening match was 36-Holes between Braid & Arnaud Massy (Biarritz & North Berwick) against Taylor & Vardon.


The prize was £100 (as per earlier item in the threads, from Tom D, that was more than The Open which Braid won for the 5th time later that year)


Nisbet 1910 notes that "the course was laid out by Braid, and Mr H.S. Colt has also made some valuable alterations"


He then notes the same "Golf Illustrated" article as George Payne does.


Nisbet 1912 repeats the same quotation as in 1910 above.




Now from my own research:


"The Observer" 12th June 1910 notes that Horace Hutchinson was the Referee on the Opening, and that:


 "When the architects of this course became known (they were Mr Harry S Colt of Sunningdale, and James Braid) we had no fears about the equity of the bunkering of the fair-way or of the fortifications of the green; the earthworks thrown up form some of the nearest things to nature that one has struck in golf - and we know of a nice variety."


Also interestingly for those who love a "steeplechase" ridge or bunker (no stump grinders back then so simple burying of this linear feature was necessary):


  "The griefs of the hedgerows at the 15th green in the afternoon virtually decided the match"


(other reports tell me that Taylor and Vardon took 7 on the 15th hole to be Dormie 3 down)


Lastly, at Luncheon the reporter noted on the content of the speeches:
 
  "As Lord Lieutenant of Essex the Earl of Warwick said that Essex at least was grateful, and no doubt Hertfordshire had similar feelings. He dwelt on the work of Mr. Colt and James Braid, and mentioned that Douglas Rolland and Ayton had formed high opinions of teh possibilities of this course."


Also, "The Sunday People" June 12 1910 wrote:
  "The new 18-holes course which has been laid out at Bishops Stortford under the advice of James Braid, the ex-champion, and Mr H.S. Colt, was formally opened on Saturday"




So, it seems that whether collaboration directly or consequently the work was completed by both in the same short 15-month period (March 1909 to June 1910).


And it sounds as if H.S. Colt's naturalisation and construction of hazards, and Braid's routing and strategic bunkering combined to make a challenging and well-regarded layout.


The patronage of a wealthy landowner, who no doubt wanted the very best, may have brought them "together".

I think the point I was really trying to make is that there must have been a flow of information, collaboration (formally or otherwise), imitation and observation at this period between many participants, which brought the art into the "Golden Age".


This particular project seems to have brought them far closer together than anyone previously may have realised, and my presumption was that Harry Colt would, given the eulogising at Luncheon, possibly have been present too.


The other factor to my contention is that James Braid was always fiercely unhappy with others modifying his work, and as such the work itself by Colt, and the subsequent public acknowledgement of this in speeches and print, would not have occured without his blessing/permission.


I hope that all makes sense, and I don't think this is just a "reach" but a genuine discovery of importance...but I do defer to Adam on matters Colt of course!


I can't believe that the two never met or shared information beyond this example given the close proximity of Walton Heath to Sunningdale, and the sheer amount of golf Braid played on that great links and others that HS Colt was involved with.

Braid certainly played in the Opening tournament at Colts's St Georges Hill for a single "off the top of my head" example.

EDIT - In fact on checking he played St. Georges Hill 5 times between 1913 and 1932.


Re. Sunningdale he played there 13 times between 1913  and 1940


Hope that all helps, and is of interest to the group.

Who built the course?

Ciao

[Ken Moum]

Everyone had to put food on the table and grow the game after all!

 
That makes some of JK's trolls look like the work of an amateur

Oops did I 1) overstep or 2) get cancelled...


Happy to delete, apologise or whatever ...

Apologize?  Heck, I was trying to give you a compliment.


All in good fun.

[Simon Barrington]

Everyone had to put food on the table and grow the game after all!

 
That makes some of JK's trolls look like the work of an amateur

Oops did I 1) overstep or 2) get cancelled...


Happy to delete, apologise or whatever ...

Apologize?  Heck, I was trying to give you a compliment.


All in good fun.

Thanks, just nervous at being mentioned in the realms of such controversy...


Phew...don't wish to "blot my copy book" before i've even started...Cheers

[Simon Barrington]

Who built the course?

Ciao



Unfortunately in everything I have read no mention of who built Bishops Stortford, apart from mention of Carters & Sons.


They and Suttons were seed merchants who also did some contracting; so it may be possible, but not known if, they did the build.


Generally we are lucky to find mention in the press reports of who designed the courses, let alone who built them.
I have many reports of the Triumvirate opening each others courses, but little to no mention of who of the three (or Mr. A. N. Other) designed the course of the day.

At my home club, Henley GC, Braid had a HGC Director, Ernest Fryer build the course for him.
He invited him to Walton Heath on at least two occassions so he could instruct him on how to build the bunkers he required (more kudos to Herbert Fowler there). Then Mr. Fryer completed the plan as drawn (which I recently found in our archive that had been "lost" unindexed for over 100 years!)


You'll also note that in the above that Professional (i.e. Tradesman) James Braid was referred to in press reports as just that, but a Gentleman such as Harry Colt was referred to as "Mr. H.S. Colt" such were the class distinctions and reportage of the time.


Cheers

[Simon Barrington]

Re. the original question, I still think I have to put Brora at the top of the list of Braid courses I've played.  Last summer my wife picked up a flyer about the seven courses on James Braid Highland Golf Trail, and as we'd previously played Boat, Inverness, Tain, Golspie, Fortrose & Rosemarkie, and had just made the trip to play Reay, she said we "needed" to see Muir of Ord.
I think we've played 14 Braid courses and, as others have said, they are all a pleasure.
K

Thanks Ken
Great fun is what I take from his courses, sounds like you had that too.
Fortrose is one of my personal favourites, played on a similar trip, the Par 4, 5th Hole out to the lighthouse is a great second shot with a menacing hollow protecting the beautifully set green. It also has one of Braid's Double Greens (which ia a feature I have a particular interest in, another thread to start?) the 6th & 11th.
Cheers

[Niall C]

You'll also note that in the above that Professional (i.e. Tradesman) James Braid was referred to in press reports as just that, but a Gentleman such as Harry Colt was referred to as "Mr. H.S. Colt" such were the class distinctions and reportage of the time.


Cheers

Simon,


I think you'll find that the Mr Colt bit is to distinguish him as an amateur rather than a professional. If you look at the entry lists posted in the newspapers for Open tournaments in the mid to late 19th century, that's how they differentiated the amateurs and professionals, and not all of the amateurs were posh.


Niall

[David_Tepper]

Per Ken Moum's mention, the James Braid Highland Golf Trail website:

https://www.jamesbraidhighland.golf/ 

7 more Braid courses described on the VisitScotland website:

https://www.visitscotland.com/things-to-do/outdoor-activities/golf/james-braid-courses 

Much more Braid info here:

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/architect/james-braid

[Tony_Muldoon]

Also interestingly for those who love a "steeplechase" ridge or bunker (no stump grinders back then so simple burying of this linear feature was necessary):


  "The griefs of the hedgerows at the 15th green in the afternoon virtually decided the match"

Thank you Simon, impressive research.  I was aware of the trilogy but one review in the BGCS didn't persuade me to buy.  You clearly think highly of it? It's hard to get publicity for this kind of work.

Firstly. 're the hedgerows as a cross hazard. In Essex it is believed these are a Braid feature. I did start a thread on here giving examples of Theydon Bois GC and (in its original routing) the third, 6th and 17th at West Essex. No one on here could give other examples. These were very early courses from him and before he was an Open Champion, he was then the Scottish Professional at Romford GC just starting to "layout" courses and doing local work. I speculated that he left them in place as he wouldn't have had the budget to remove them. But your example is a) also in Essex b) much later work and c) of a high budget. Curious.
I'm A member at West Essex and you are welcome to visit.

I was also intrigued by your reference to double greens in another thread.  I wasn't aware of that and there was one at West Essex lost when they did a land swap in the 60's.

Carter's Seeds were involved in Golf Course construction right from Walton Heath at the beginning of modern work. Somewhere on here, the much missed and sadly late Tom MacWood, named a man who worked for them as an on site "Architect" and they often worked with Braid (sadly you'll find the search function on here is "limited" in its efficiency at best).

Have you played Purdis Heath and Woodbridge? Although only a few miles apart they are quite contrasting. The former has a beautiful blind sunken green but mostly, like West Essex, they are small targets. The later has larger ones and overall feels quite different. Both are out of the way of most touring golfers, but are worth the trip. I'm sure an invitation to Woodbridge can be secured .

[Simon Barrington]

Simon,
I think you'll find that the Mr Colt bit is to distinguish him as an amateur rather than a professional. If you look at the entry lists posted in the newspapers for Open tournaments in the mid to late 19th century, that's how they differentiated the amateurs and professionals, and not all of the amateurs were posh.
Niall

Indeed, that is what I was referring too; and you are right about that, but very few if any professionals were considered posh.


I'll explain why this matters in bit, but the class distinction is one often missed, especially by my friends in the US who haven't had that history (although the Ivy League mentality is possibly an even more rarified form of it!)


Why is this important in Golf Architecture?


"Those that wrote history, get to define history" and the Gentlemen of Oxbridge wrote copiously (which is a blessing).
But they did so from their unique perspective and sometimes omitted or denigrated the contributions of the Professionals as they moved to migrate the art into a paid Profession (ironically).
In that, writings such as "Advanced Golf" and others have become less-read or even ignored and that is a shame...


I have family connections in Cricket (and apologies for including another sport on a golf site) and the following articlulates the status issue I raised pretty well (better than I can)...

Here is the article (ref. Wikipedia):-
"The real distinction between amateur and professional, encapsulated by the Gentlemen v Players fixture which was first arranged by Lord Frederick Beauclerk in 1806 and played annually from 1829 to 1962, was social status within the English class structure. Amateurs (the Gentlemen) belonged to the upper and middle classes; professionals (the Players) invariably came from the working class. It was perceived that the amateur held a higher station in life and was therefore a class apart from the professional. The outlook of the two classes contrasted in that most of the amateurs played primarily for enjoyment, while most of the professionals took the game, as their living, very seriously indeed. Of underlying importance to the concept of amateurism were the schools, universities and other centres of education in which cricket was played, both as a curricular and extracurricular activity. The public schools (e.g., Eton, Harrow, Winchester) and the main universities (i.e., Oxford and Cambridge) produced most of the first-class amateur players and standards of amateur cricket rose during the 19th century through rivalry between the schools and then at university.[1]
As early as the 17th century, there is evidence that sporting types among the well-to-do relished strong competition and welcomed the opportunity to play against the best performers, who tended to be working class and in time became the first professionals. Although the gentry were happy to play with and against the working class, they still retained a sense of social distinction and so, by the 19th century, the word "amateur" had taken on a peculiar meaning of its own in cricket terms that was redolent of social status and implied respectability. The amateurs insisted upon separate dressing rooms and, at some grounds, even a separate gateway onto the field. On scorecards, the amateur would be listed initials first and a professional teammate initials last: for example, P. B. H. May and Laker, J. C. In one notably laughable instance, when the professional Fred Titmus was walking out to bat, the public announcer stated that there was a mistake in the printed scorecards being sold at the ground: "F. J. Titmus should read Titmus, F. J."[2]"
Cheers

[Simon Barrington]

Per Ken Moum's mention, the James Braid Highland Golf Trail website:

https://www.jamesbraidhighland.golf/ 

7 more Braid courses described on the VisitScotland website:

https://www.visitscotland.com/things-to-do/outdoor-activities/golf/james-braid-courses 

Much more Braid info here:

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/architect/james-braid

Thanks David, all good resources to discover some of his work, I will get the site the 2024 full AOJBC listing when its done
Cheers

[Simon Barrington]

Also interestingly for those who love a "steeplechase" ridge or bunker (no stump grinders back then so simple burying of this linear feature was necessary):


  "The griefs of the hedgerows at the 15th green in the afternoon virtually decided the match"

Thank you Simon, impressive research.  I was aware of the trilogy but one review in the BGCS didn't persuade me to buy.  You clearly think highly of it? It's hard to get publicity for this kind of work.

Firstly. 're the hedgerows as a cross hazard. In Essex it is believed these are a Braid feature. I did start a thread on here giving examples of Theydon Bois GC and (in its original routing) the third, 6th and 17th at West Essex. No one on here could give other examples. These were very early courses from him and before he was an Open Champion, he was then the Scottish Professional at Romford GC just starting to "layout" courses and doing local work. I speculated that he left them in place as he wouldn't have had the budget to remove them. But your example is a) also in Essex b) much later work and c) of a high budget. Curious.
I'm A member at West Essex and you are welcome to visit.

I was also intrigued by your reference to double greens in another thread.  I wasn't aware of that and there was one at West Essex lost when they did a land swap in the 60's.

Carter's Seeds were involved in Golf Course construction right from Walton Heath at the beginning of modern work. Somewhere on here, the much missed and sadly late Tom MacWood, named a man who worked for them as an on site "Architect" and they often worked with Braid (sadly you'll find the search function on here is "limited" in its efficiency at best).

Have you played Purdis Heath and Woodbridge? Although only a few miles apart they are quite contrasting. The former has a beautiful blind sunken green but mostly, like West Essex, they are small targets. The later has larger ones and overall feels quite different. Both are out of the way of most touring golfers, but are worth the trip. I'm sure an invitation to Woodbridge can be secured .

Thanks Tony, and very kind. 


Would love to join you, when this darn rain stops!
West Essex (1900) is the oldest original James Braid 18-Hole course still in existence, and this consequently on my must-play list this year.


The "steeplechase" features were necessary due to the lack of stump grinders and for speed and cost keeping them and burying these "Natural" features added to the "sport" of the early courses.
Dunn was particularly fond of them, and added some where hedges simply did not exist!
Some were just ridges, some were ditches then ridges, some sand bunkers then ridges,
Michael Morrison has written about them in a BCGS 3-parter on Dunn, which is well worth a read.
They were pervasive in England on many courses, but fewer and fewer left (e.g. Henley sadly removed two sets of these in 1994 as they chased length and modernised!)


Note - Braid was so innovative that he specifically detailed that any path between such hazards be "s-shaped" and not straight so that a ball would not simply run through the gap but be caught by one side or the other regardless!


Interestingly, Brian Schneider of Renaissance Golf has just used these "steelplechase ridges" as a feature at Old Barnwell in the US, they look great!


Another quirky and inherited feature of the time that Braid used, and is surprisingly on several courses still (including at Henley) is the humble Hawthorn bush (cut as a ball on a stick) in collections as a hazard. At Romford he even has some of these in bunkers!


Re. Double Greens - I am collating a list (its far more extensive than people will expect, and I saw an old thread from c.2003 on here with some great debate)...I am including "Lost " ones so would be very interested to know specifically which holes these were. They may be Braid's first use of the feature, I had previously thought Henley was (1st/17th are back-to-back and were one green originally with a "Biarritz" gulley between them) so that's great info Thanks!


Suffolk on the agenda too! Sadly, I've only played c. 120 of James Braid's courses so far so, another two to visit!


Cheers

[Tony_Muldoon]

Would love to join you, when this darn rain stops!
West Essex (1900) is the oldest original James Braid 18-Hole course still in existence, and this consequently on my must-play list this year.

The "steeplechase" features were necessary due to the lack of stump grinders and for speed and cost keeping them and burying these "Natural" features added to the "sport" of the early courses.
Dunn was particularly fond of them, and added some where hedges simply did not exist!
Some were just ridges, some were ditches then ridges, some sand bunkers then ridges,
Michael Morrison has written about them in a BCGS 3-parter on Dunn, which is well worth a read.
They were pervasive in England on many courses, but fewer and fewer left (e.g. Henley sadly removed two sets of these in 1994 as they chased length and modernised!)


Note - Braid was so innovative that he specifically detailed that any path between such hazards be "s-shaped" and not straight so that a ball would not simply run through the gap but be caught by one side or the other regardless!


Another quirky and inherited feature of the time that Braid used, and is surprisingly on several courses still (including at Henley) is the humble Hawthorn bush (cut as a ball on a stick) in collections as a hazard. At Romford he even has some of these in bunkers!

If we can chooose a quiet time we can play the 3rd as orginally intended over the steeplechase.. Tally Ho!

The 6th (a lovely hole) has only recently lost the hedgerow but the Hawthorn remains.  I've always thought it looked a litlle contrived, but its a real distraction and will look again with fresh eyes.
Romford does still feature some of these but I can't recall anything similar at Bishops Stortford. Will make a visit to Theydon Bois a priority, you can even see such features from the road.
Interestingly a 'new' local course Eppping GC was created by someone who grew up playing West Essex.  The Par 3 12th palys accross a wide 'hedgerow' with no path cut straight through. Braid's influence lives on.

I have found a pre war aerial of West Esssex which combined with a stick drawing by long term members in the Clubs Centenary book, I have located the lost double green and will send you a copy of this.


I'm curious if you have any notes as to Braids thoughts on water as a hazard?   At Purdis Heath he routes the wholecourse around a lake but never goes near it?

Also a Group of us are off to Elie in September and I'll look up his house.  (Check out the Buda thread, you are welcome to join.)  Three years ago I visited St Peters Church, Walton on the Heath as I was passing. Despite finding a Church Warden we couldn't find his grave.  Do you know where abouts its located?
She did think the name sounded familair and directed me to his House which does have a blue plack.  I was surprised at how modest it was, as his earning were well above average for the time? 


(note a search shows Mr Arble beat me to this https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=61415.0)

[Adam Lawrence]

I have found courses where Braid and Colt worked together, Braid & Vardon, and many where he made alterations, remodels, extensions and re-bunkering of others work. And vice versa.

Simon welcome to the board and this is an excellent start.

Can you give examples of where Braid and Colt worked "together".  I am aware of many courses where they made sequential visits but wasn't aware of them working together?
 I'm guessing this is post WW1? I may have something for you?

Writing as proud member of 2 courses where he worked magic.

Thank you Tony, very kind.


The single course I was referring to (for the Braid/Colt combo) was Bishops Stortford (and I will follow in some, perhaps too much, detail as Adam also has asked effectively the same question)


George Payne's superb Trilogy "The Divine Fury of James Braid - Vol 3" notes that Sir Walter Gilbey (of the Gin company) originally commission Braid's cousin, Douglas Rolland to lay out an 18-hole course c.1906/7.


The Club also paid James Braid for a visit and advice in February 1909, Carter & Co provided the seeds and the course was opened on 11th June 1910.


One newspaper report noted "the course covered 140 acres, laid out by Colt and Braid and the holes varied from 130-500 yards, which were liberally studied with bunkers of various types."


Another attributed the layout solely to Braid.


'Golf Illustrated' reported the "course laid out by James Braid but also that evidence of the work of Mr. H.S. Colt in bunker and hazard designing are seen at several of the holes."


So, exactly what each of Rolland, Braid and Colt designed is therefore not entirely clear. (Note - Rolland had apparently fallen on tough times in the period concerned.)




John Moreton's "James Braid and his Four Hundred Golf Courses" notes:


"Golf Illustrated" March 1909 - James Braid the Open Champion, visited the course last week, at the invitation of the committee, and expressed his satisfaction wih the design of the course, and with the work as far as it has progressed.


Not sure if the committee was having a crisis of confidence in Rolland's design or that they had already engaged Braid for a redesign, we know he was paid for the visit.


Moreton goes on to note that the tees and greens had to be reseeded in 1908, so evidently there were problems.


The Opening match was 36-Holes between Braid & Arnaud Massy (Biarritz & North Berwick) against Taylor & Vardon.


The prize was £100 (as per earlier item in the threads, from Tom D, that was more than The Open which Braid won for the 5th time later that year)


Nisbet 1910 notes that "the course was laid out by Braid, and Mr H.S. Colt has also made some valuable alterations"


He then notes the same "Golf Illustrated" article as George Payne does.


Nisbet 1912 repeats the same quotation as in 1910 above.




Now from my own research:


"The Observer" 12th June 1910 notes that Horace Hutchinson was the Referee on the Opening, and that:


 "When the architects of this course became known (they were Mr Harry S Colt of Sunningdale, and James Braid) we had no fears about the equity of the bunkering of the fair-way or of the fortifications of the green; the earthworks thrown up form some of the nearest things to nature that one has struck in golf - and we know of a nice variety."


Also interestingly for those who love a "steeplechase" ridge or bunker (no stump grinders back then so simple burying of this linear feature was necessary):


  "The griefs of the hedgerows at the 15th green in the afternoon virtually decided the match"


(other reports tell me that Taylor and Vardon took 7 on the 15th hole to be Dormie 3 down)


Lastly, at Luncheon the reporter noted on the content of the speeches:
 
  "As Lord Lieutenant of Essex the Earl of Warwick said that Essex at least was grateful, and no doubt Hertfordshire had similar feelings. He dwelt on the work of Mr. Colt and James Braid, and mentioned that Douglas Rolland and Ayton had formed high opinions of teh possibilities of this course."


Also, "The Sunday People" June 12 1910 wrote:
  "The new 18-holes course which has been laid out at Bishops Stortford under the advice of James Braid, the ex-champion, and Mr H.S. Colt, was formally opened on Saturday"




So, it seems that whether collaboration directly or consequently the work was completed by both in the same short 15-month period (March 1909 to June 1910).


And it sounds as if H.S. Colt's naturalisation and construction of hazards, and Braid's routing and strategic bunkering combined to make a challenging and well-regarded layout.


The patronage of a wealthy landowner, who no doubt wanted the very best, may have brought them "together".

I think the point I was really trying to make is that there must have been a flow of information, collaboration (formally or otherwise), imitation and observation at this period between many participants, which brought the art into the "Golden Age".


This particular project seems to have brought them far closer together than anyone previously may have realised, and my presumption was that Harry Colt would, given the eulogising at Luncheon, possibly have been present too.


The other factor to my contention is that James Braid was always fiercely unhappy with others modifying his work, and as such the work itself by Colt, and the subsequent public acknowledgement of this in speeches and print, would not have occured without his blessing/permission.


I hope that all makes sense, and I don't think this is just a "reach" but a genuine discovery of importance...but I do defer to Adam on matters Colt of course!


I can't believe that the two never met or shared information beyond this example given the close proximity of Walton Heath to Sunningdale, and the sheer amount of golf Braid played on that great links and others that HS Colt was involved with.

Braid certainly played in the Opening tournament at Colts's St Georges Hill for a single "off the top of my head" example.

EDIT - In fact on checking he played St. Georges Hill 5 times between 1913 and 1932.


Re. Sunningdale he played there 13 times between 1913  and 1940


Hope that all helps, and is of interest to the group.

I had forgotten that Rolland was Braid's cousin. He was Colt's mentor as a young golfer -- he was pro at the Worcestershire club in Malvern when Harry took up the game, andmoved to the nine hole Limpsfield Chart club, the first course created on the Surrey heathland -- where Colt was also a member -- in 1890. He later rmoved to Rye (presumably at Colt's instigation) when the club was founded, and the two men worked together closely to create the golf course Rolland and Colt also worked together to extend the nine hole Hastings and St Leonards course (NLE, first nine by Tom Dunn) to eighteen. The two men were clearly close, and it would be hardly surprising if Colt and Braid came to know each other through Rolland (though the pre-WW1 golf world was very small and they would certainly have made each others acquaintance anyway).

Rolland is a fascinating figure actually, and deserving of a lot more attention. He was second in the 1884 Open at Prestwick, and runner-up again in 1894 at Sandwich. What makes that particularly interesting is that he didn't play in any of the Championships in the decade in between. He had left Scotland after failing to attend court to answer a paternity suit, and was held in contempt of court, which made it impossible for him to return to Scotland. And 1894, of course, was the first Open to be held in England!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Simon here's another old thread.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44157.msg961237.html#msg961237

Are 4 section greens really a thing with Braid courses or a case of 4+4=coincidence?

[Simon Barrington]

Thank you Adam. This is great, I think we collectively honing in fast on the possible connection/introduction...


I knew of Rolland, his life is both a great and tragic story (Ladies and Alcohol dominate), clearly he was a superb golfer.


1) In 1895 Braid was an Assistant Pro at Hastings & St Leonards at weekends, when working at the Army & Navy Stores in London during the week. This was prior to his Romford appointment (1896) and the Professional at Hastings was another cousin, Ralph (Charles) Smith.


2) I knew from John Moreton's "400" that Rolland had extended the course to 18 in 1894/95; and Braid, Smith & two local professionals (not Rolland) formally opened the new links.


3) George Payne's "Divine Fury" noted the opening was on 25th Nov 1896. Braid returned to play another match on 4th May 1898.


4) in 1901 10-acres of land became available and Braid was asked to design 6 new holes so the entire course would be on private (not public) land. His letter stating his opinion appeared in the local press and the now defunct club retained a copy.
         "The course I have laid out, will consist of new and much longer sporting holes than formerly; and looking at the natural beauty of        the surroundings I consider the Hastings and St Leonards Golf Links will now compare favourably with any on the South Coast."


5) Braid returned in December 1901 again (to supervise?), and then to play a match on 16th May 1902, presumably to "open" the 6 new holes.

So Hastings & St Leonards GC could possibly/easily have been the place of Braid & Colt's introduction during 1895?


Neither of the books I refer to mention Colt as being involved in the Rolland extension or the Braid replacement 6-Holes.
Do you have evidence of that, which would be very welcome as we try to connect these two titans of design, I have ony seen or heard assumptions that they did so.


However, in terms of them meeting that is not entirely critical as I believe that Colt was working locally in Hastings as a Partner in the Law firm Sayer & Colt, from c.1894 (only one year after his Graduation!) and as you say he took lessons from Rolland, having been CUGC Captain in both 1891 & 1893.


The Colt designed the 18-Holes at Rye (note the Club's Website does not mention Rolland) in 1895 when a founder and the Club's first Captain, at the same time as the H&StL Rolland extension.


Rye is interesting, as in 1909 Braid was asked to give his opinion over several changes made to the course in 1907, Braid's opinion was "entirely favourable". This is notable as at the same time Colt's design career was really flying including that year the opening of Swinley Forest, so why did Rye wish for a second/different opinion from Braid?


Braid then returned several times to Rye for advice to the Club (and according to his ledger he was paid well); 1921 (paid £17-10-0 and expenses of £8-10-0), Sept 1929 (paid £12-5-0 and expenses of £2-5-0) and October 1930 (paid £11-7-6 and expenses of £2-17-6).
The latter two were for advice about the course and its interaction with the road splitting the course.
Braid proposed altering the course and not the road, but having sat on the plans for 2-years the committee resolved the issues via a redesign by Tom Simpson.
The club has no records of these payments to Braid nor of the work he did, completed or otherwise. Which is odd.
As John Moreton states it seems a lot of money for just consultation.
So there is an open research task to find any record of what the money was actually for, and if any physical work was done/remains.
Would you know of the archivist/historian at Rye?


(See YouTube link below for the following)
Rolland was lured to Rye GC in 1894 by Colt and was offered 25 shillings/week. He resigned in October 1895, due to an offer from abroad (possibly Winnipeg GC w. Willie Park), but Rolland was for some reason left out of the deal. "Golf" magazine that year reported he was to be the personal coach to an Indian Prince (Mararajah)...which also may not have occurred.



Here is a link to an informative lecture about Rolland made by Iain Crawford at the R&A Museum in 1922 (from where some of the information above came from):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9_gt4sK5pM

Lastly, The following from Horace Hutchinson is illuminating, as Braid seemingly surpassed his cousin, Rolland as the longest of golfers:
     "Not very long after this the newly formed club at Romford, in Essex, found itself in want of a professional.
        James Braid was engaged for the post.        I had a game with him shortly after he was appointed to that job and what impressed me about him more than anything else was the enormous distance that he could smite the ball with the cleek. I remember that this ability to get huge distances with the iron clubs was the quality that had most struck me when first I became acquainted with the game of Rolland, and I said to Braid "It seems to me you can drive just as far as Douglas Rolland can." He looked at me a moment, as if in a kind of mild surprise that I should make such a comment, and said, "Oh yes, Sir, I think I can do that." It was an amusing answer: also it was an answer which meant a good deal, coming from a man so absolutely unable to swagger or to over-rate his own power as James Braid. I realized that we had here a great force in golf; but it was rather a long while before he made that force fully felt."


Cheers!

[Simon Barrington]

If we can chooose a quiet time we can play the 3rd as orginally intended over the steeplechase.. Tally Ho!

The 6th (a lovely hole) has only recently lost the hedgerow but the Hawthorn remains.  I've always thought it looked a litlle contrived, but its a real distraction and will look again with fresh eyes.
Romford does still feature some of these but I can't recall anything similar at Bishops Stortford. Will make a visit to Theydon Bois a priority, you can even see such features from the road.
Interestingly a 'new' local course Eppping GC was created by someone who grew up playing West Essex.  The Par 3 12th palys accross a wide 'hedgerow' with no path cut straight through. Braid's influence lives on.

I have found a pre war aerial of West Esssex which combined with a stick drawing by long term members in the Clubs Centenary book, I have located the lost double green and will send you a copy of this.

I'm curious if you have any notes as to Braids thoughts on water as a hazard?   At Purdis Heath he routes the wholecourse around a lake but never goes near it?

Also a Group of us are off to Elie in September and I'll look up his house.  (Check out the Buda thread, you are welcome to join.)  Three years ago I visited St Peters Church, Walton on the Heath as I was passing. Despite finding a Church Warden we couldn't find his grave.  Do you know where abouts its located?
She did think the name sounded familair and directed me to his House which does have a blue plack.  I was surprised at how modest it was, as his earning were well above average for the time? 

(note a search shows Mr Arble beat me to this https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=61415.0)

All great stuff, and definitely up for a visit your way, Theydon Bois was his first original 9-holer just prior to West Essex, so will be right at the start of his design career...what fun!


Re. Water - Believe it or not the word "water" is not even found in the two chapters of "Advanced Golf" on design, so not even a thought at that stage.


However, Braid used whatever features the land gave him creatively in routing, and for example a famous re-design he completed at Reddish Vale on the 16th fully embraced the surrounding water courses to fantastic effect (but that was later c.1934)


Thanks so much re. Double Green info my email is: jamesbraidresearch@gmail.com


(BTW Gog Magog also has hedges to carry, Braid did some work there too, but these may pre-date his involvement.)


Cheers!

[Simon Barrington]

Simon here's another old thread.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44157.msg961237.html#msg961237

Are 4 section greens really a thing with Braid courses or a case of 4+4=coincidence?

Yes, great stuff I had seen this thread prior to my joining!


I have found 8 possible "Quartered Greens" on courses Braid worked upon, interestingly to my dialogue/collaboration with Adam several of these also involve HS Colt, so some symbiosis going on there too.


I believe that the 9th Green at Henley (1907) was the first and the oldest remaining of Braid's Quarters.


Willie Park Jnr. had done the 4th Green at Huntercombe in 1901, which was one of James Braid's stated favourite courses (that he wasn't involved with) so again a flow of ideas by discussion, collaboration or imitation abounds as we move into the Golden Age

[Adam Lawrence]

Oh wow, I had no idea that Braid was a pro at Hastings. Colt was a member of the club throughout his time in the town, so there can be little doubt that the two met at that time, especially given their mutual connection through Rolland.

[James Reader]

I grew up playing Sherwood Forest and have been a member for over 40 years, so have a very deep affection for the course. Over the last few years the club has been making more and more of its Colt connection but it’s very clear that what is there today owes an awful lot more to Braid, who reworked the course in the late 1920s.

Yet another great course I neeed to visit, and research as to what of JB's work still remains, it sounds like a good deal!


I get the marketing heft of "more popular" (esp. Stateside) architects such as Colt & Mackenzie, it makes commercial sense.


The AOJBC simply tries to learn, educate and celebrate what remains of James Braid's work in any event, no matter how small or large.
We don't claim the members as "Braid Courses" per se...more Courses that Braid did work that remains upon.


We have over 320 member clubs and growing, we'd love to have Sherwood Forest amongst them!


Cheers

This link is to an extract from Sherwood’s club history, which details the work undertaken by Braid in the 20s.  Today’s course is substantially as Braid left it, give or take some new tees and changes to some bunkering (and more trees, albeit a lot less now than in the photos from 1995, when the book was published).


 [size=78%]https://www.sherwoodforestgolfclub.co.uk/uploads/sherwoodforest/File/CHAPTER%205%20(part%201%20and%202).pdf[/size]


[/size]I’ve always been sceptical as to just how much the original layout owed to Colt. Regardless, it’s clear that the changes Braid made were a big improvement.


If you fancy a visit some time just let me know. There are proposals from Martin Ebert being considered which would result in significant changes to half a dozen holes, so there may be less Braid to see if you leave it a few years!

[Simon Barrington]

This link is to an extract from Sherwood’s club history, which details the work undertaken by Braid in the 20s.  Today’s course is substantially as Braid left it, give or take some new tees and changes to some bunkering (and more trees, albeit a lot less now than in the photos from 1995, when the book was published).


 [size=78%]https://www.sherwoodforestgolfclub.co.uk/uploads/sherwoodforest/File/CHAPTER%205%20(part%201%20and%202).pdf[/size]


I’ve always been sceptical as to just how much the original layout owed to Colt. Regardless, it’s clear that the changes Braid made were a big improvement.


If you fancy a visit some time just let me know. There are proposals from Martin Ebert being considered which would result in significant changes to half a dozen holes, so there may be less Braid to see if you leave it a few years!



Wonderful, and thank yoyu so much for the document.
That looks like great detail to study, and yes would love to see it in the flesh.
Hopefully the M&E changes are in keeping (or is "Little Eye" making a comeback from the dead!)


Of course will very happily reciprocate down at Henley (The Home of the AOJBC)


Cheers!

[Simon Barrington]

Oh wow, I had no idea that Braid was a pro at Hastings. Colt was a member of the club throughout his time in the town, so there can be little doubt that the two met at that time, especially given their mutual connection through Rolland.

That's what you call a serindipitous Saturday job!

It's great when simple questions and joint research finds these connections.

As I said to Ran when I asked to join, this is exactly what I hoped could happen when like minded people work together...just great!

There is so much in common in approach and even sometime aesthetics than we commonly perceive.


EDIT - Adam, I think also that the poor decisions that Rolland made in his life make it even more likely that they worked "together" at Bishops Stortford as they rallied round a friend and relation?
But, until we see some contemporaneous record of that somewhere (perhaps BSGC archive or by matching Colt & Braid Diaires/Ledgers etc.) we can't be 100% sure...but it is looking more likely than not IMHO. Fancy a trip to BSGC sometime to dig further?

[Niall C]

I grew up playing Sherwood Forest and have been a member for over 40 years, so have a very deep affection for the course. Over the last few years the club has been making more and more of its Colt connection but it’s very clear that what is there today owes an awful lot more to Braid, who reworked the course in the late 1920s.

James


Do you think that's really true about there being more Braid than Colt left in the course ? It seems to me the bones of the course are as laid down by Colt.


Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/news-item/book-review-divine-fury-of-james-braid-professional-golf-standard-bearer

This review of the book singles out that Braid and Colt played together at Stoke Poges in 1911.


Still considering whether to pull the plug on this as its £285 inc postage.   I found the Moreton one a bit basic, so I'd want  a lot more detail to justify that price.
I like the suggestion that Clubs should purchase a Copy of the Book.   I'll pass it on.