Fleecing People

[PCCraig]

If people don't like it, they don't have to play.


This isn't China.

[Jason Topp]

The price was lower than I would have expected.  I will be shocked if it does not sell out. 

[Rob Marshall]

Rick,
If this were gas prices or room rates after a hurricane I could get your point but I think you are way off base and to ask Zac to donate money is crazy. No one has to pay the rates. What about all the clubs whose initiation fees went up 5 or 6 times due to the covid golf boom?

[cary lichtenstein]

does anyone refuse to play the old course because of the price? I think not

[Jerry Kluger]

I don't care about playing golf during Masters Week, I just want to go to the tournament.  You want to talk about fleecing - try buying a ticket in the secondary market.

[Sean_A]

does anyone refuse to play the old course because of the price? I think not

You must be joking. Walk into any UK club and ask the question. Countless hands will go up for no thanks.

Ciao

[Peter Sayegh]

does anyone refuse to play the old course because of the price? I think not

You must be joking. Walk into any UK club and ask the question. Countless hands will go up for no thanks.

Ciao

I'd love to play it but NEVER at the current fee.

I can chase multiple "lifelong memories," inside and outside of golf, for a fraction of the cost.

The elite do not see the true fleecing occurring in golf currently.

I recently played a course that featured maintenance crews on the first four holes (some bunkers were stone) AND two temporary greens.

They happily took my money without any mention of the conditions.

[Joe_Tucholski]

The elite do not see the true fleecing occurring in golf currently.

I recently played a course that featured maintenance crews on the first four holes (some bunkers were stone) AND two temporary greens.

They happily took my money without any mention of the conditions.

Don't like it when I show and find the greens have been punched.  Most places publish the information and offer a discount.  Other things I don't like are mandatory cart/caddie fees that aren't disclosed and the essentially mandatory fees where an employee shows up with their hand out looking for a tip to do things I don't want (mandatory valet, taking my clubs from my car, cleaning my clubs at the end of a round...).


I'm not exactly sure if the nickel and diming at clubs is fleecing but I don't love it.  Reoccurring fees seem to be the way forward in pretty much everything.  Two things that really bother me are fees to use my own push cart (there is also a fee to use your own golf car) and a fee just to walk (trail fee really?).

[Rick Sides]

Rob Marshall do you know the history of Aiken South Carolina ??

[Rob Marshall]

Rob Marshall do you know the history of Aiken South Carolina ??

Nope, Enlighten me.

[Peter Sayegh]

The elite do not see the true fleecing occurring in golf currently.

I recently played a course that featured maintenance crews on the first four holes (some bunkers were stone) AND two temporary greens.

They happily took my money without any mention of the conditions.

Two things that really bother me are fees to use my own push cart (there is also a fee to use your own golf car) and a fee just to walk (trail fee really?).

Joe, they should more than "bother" you.
I kinda understand not allowing personal carts, but the push cart/walking surchages are reprehensible.
Hashtag Grow the Game.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Whilst I tend to agree with the line I don't have to play there if I dont want to pay what they are asking,  this thread has highlighted what I do think is a culture where very poor customer service is tolerated in Golf. Amazing when in most services I encounter, standards are raising to an all time high.


I drove several hours and stayed in a Hotel overnight to play Broadstone and had my tee time put back 1hr for a frost delay and to allow the members who had come for a roll up to go out before us.  Well thats kind of Ok - but on a busy course like North Berwick if you're unlucky enough to hit the unplayable weather, then its your tee time that is lost.


However what really shouldn't have been acceptable was two holes closed for work and another Par 4 moved up so far that the tee shot became an 8 iron.  No fee reduction or complimentary coffee during the delay, was offered.  I hadn't booked the tee time so I didn't make a fuss.
In what other service industry would they expected me to pay the full price for 15.5/18th (86% ) of the goods? 
Once you've arrived its too late to be informed of sub optimal conditions and still have entirely free choice.

Maybe we should have a tread collating courses where this has happened?  (Not Golf Architecture as such). 


Amazed to read about a trail fee...

[Sean_A]

Whilst I tend to agree with the line I don't have to play there if I dont want to pay what they are asking,  this thread has highlighted what I do think is a culture where very poor customer service is tolerated in Golf. Amazing when in most services I encounter, standards are raising to an all time high.


I drove several hours and stayed in a Hotel overnight to play Broadstone and had my tee time put back 1hr for a frost delay and to allow the members who had come for a roll up to go out before us.  Well thats kind of Ok - but on a busy course like North Berwick if you're unlucky enough to hit the unplayable weather, then its your tee time that is lost.


However what really shouldn't have been acceptable was two holes closed for work and another Par 4 moved up so far that the tee shot became an 8 iron.  No fee reduction or complimentary coffee during the delay, was offered.  I hadn't booked the tee time so I didn't make a fuss.
In what other service industry would they expected me to pay the full price for 15.5/18th (86% ) of the goods? 
Once you've arrived its too late to be informed of sub optimal conditions and still have entirely free choice.

Maybe we should have a tread collating courses where this has happened?  (Not Golf Architecture as such). 


Amazed to read about a trail fee...

While obviously not ideal, I do prefer times affected by weather to be cancelled rather than delayed. I purposely play near the end of tee slots in winter to enjoy the best of the day. I don’t see why my time should be pushed back and likely not have enough daylight to finish when I planned for possible delays. That said, the club/pro should rebook lost times in the same order as was the case at the start of the day rather than there being a free for all like I have seen at some clubs. I will say that in my time in Michigan, it was common to push times back rather than cancel…so later tee times got screwed.

Ciao

[Craig Sweet]

I'm not fan of dynamic pricing. It creates a class system...the have's and the have not's.  A hotel room when the local college is playing a Saturday home game will soar from $200 a night to $350 a night putting attending out of reach for many.

[Tim_Weiman]

Rob Marshall do you know the history of Aiken South Carolina ??

Rob,


I don’t know the history of Aiken, South Carolina, but do know it was and still is a big horse riding and training community. The Wilcox Hotel is filled with pictures of that history and both the Spring and Fall Steeplechase remain big events that many people attend.


It would not surprise me if Aiken was also the scene of painful experiences with slavery and, perhaps, Jim Crow. If so, I am not sure what, if any, impact it should have on whether golf clubs in Aiken open their doors during Masters week and the fees a club charges for those rounds.


There is no question golf can be expensive. I can remember my first trip to  Ballybunion in the 1980s before the Celtic Tiger. Unemployment in County Kerry was running about 45% apparently and there were local members who simply couldn’t afford the annual dues of 200 Irish punt.


The beloved Secretary Sean Walsh warmly told such members to enjoy their beers right at the club, if possible, rather than spending their beer money up town. Of course, it didn’t hurt that Walsh developed friendships with golfers from Pine Valley and Marion, not to mention Tom Watson.


As with other European clubs, those visitor fees helped keep things affordable for local members.

[Tim_Weiman]

I'm not fan of dynamic pricing. It creates a class system...the have's and the have not's.  A hotel room when the local college is playing a Saturday home game will soar from $200 a night to $350 a night putting attending out of reach for many.

Craig,


If not dynamic pricing, how would you accommodate peak demand that exceeds supply?


I once spend a night in Tuscaloosa and asked a front desk clerk about getting a room for a weekend the Alabama football team is playing in town. The woman told me reservations have to be made 2-3 years in advance and then at a much higher price than normal.


Investors just aren’t going to build hotels locally to accommodate peak demand and I certainly can’t blame them.

[John_Cullum]

I'm not fan of dynamic pricing. It creates a class system...the have's and the have not's.  A hotel room when the local college is playing a Saturday home game will soar from $200 a night to $350 a night putting attending out of reach for many.

Obviously not an SEC town. Check hotel prices in Athens GA on a football weekend.

[SB]

As a golf course operator, let me explain how frost delays work.


First, frost forms based on a combination of three main things - temperature, humidity, wind speed, plus a number of other factors, outlined here:


https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/fog_stuff/Dew_Frost/Dew_Frost.htm#:~:text=When%20temperatures%20drop%20below%20freezing,white%20frost%20or%20hoar%20frost.


You can have days with a 32 degree low and no frost, and a 38 degree low with TONS of frost.  Add to the fact that any given forecast will change by as much as 5 degrees over the course of the week leading up to the day you're playing, and will be WRONG by 3 or 4 degrees even from the forecast the night before. Literally, when we put out a tee sheet 7 days ahead or even the night before, we have NO IDEA if there will be frost or not.  We just show up and find out.


Also, the frost can vary in thickness so that on some days here in Atlanta, the frost will be gone by 8:00, and some days it's 10:30.  We don't have ANY idea which one it will be.  There is no such thing as a frost forecast so golf courses are just guessing.   


So what WE do, is block off the morning tee times until 9 if it looks like it's going to be 35 degrees or less at a week out.  If it continues to get worse, we'll block off some more tee times, and if it looks like it's going to be warmer we'll unblock all of the times.  But many days we thought it would be until 9 and it turns out it's 10.  So everyone gets pushed back an hour.  Everyone stays in order.  Sometimes the forecast changes and someone booked a time at 8:15 and has to wait until 10:30.  If we think there might be frost, we'll email them, but usually we don't know.  There is literally nothing we can do, other than open every single day at 10:30.  But then everyone would complain because they can't get done by lunch. 


There is a very simple solution if you don't like the chance of a frost delay.  It's the same thing I tell people that don't like muddy dormant bermudagrass.  Put away your clubs in November and come back in April.

[Rob Marshall]

"It would not surprise me if Aiken was also the scene of painful experiences with slavery and, perhaps, Jim Crow. If so, I am not sure what, if any, impact it should have on whether golf clubs in Aiken open their doors during Masters week and the fees a club charges for those rounds."

I get that Tim, I have family that live in Charleston. My thought was exactly yours. What does that have to do with Aiken golf clubs charging high fees during Masters week?

[Paul Rudovsky]

For those who say this is fleecing others, please respond to the following.  If you (1) purchased a house 20 years ago for $200,000 and, (2) had not made any significant improvements in the property but had maintained it well,  and (3) wanted to sell your house and brokers assured you you can sell it easily for say $1,200,000 (which would mean a compound return of 8.9% ....and much much higher return if you financed your purchase with a mortgage)...would you sell the house (a) for $557,000 (a compound return of 5% and much higher if you financed the purchase with a mortgage) or (b) the $1,200,000?


And, please do not response with "but this is different".

[Ian Mackenzie]

I'm not fan of dynamic pricing. It creates a class system...the have's and the have not's.  A hotel room when the local college is playing a Saturday home game will soar from $200 a night to $350 a night putting attending out of reach for many.

Obviously not an SEC town. Check hotel prices in Athens GA on a football weekend.

I think this is an applicable analogy.


About 10 years ago, I went to Ann Arbor, MI for a September weekend wedding of my wife's cousin.
Yes, there was also a Michigan home game at the Big House.


Was there with my wife and daughter and we finally scored a "motel room" at a "2 star" at best motel that would usually charge $100/night.


During this weekend, the motel was charging $300/nt for their rooms due to the football game.


we paid it as we had no choice.


Dynamic pricing is just an accepted business practice today and those who object to it should plan and choose ahead as they see fit as it is a free-ass country...;-)


You dont like it, dont buy it or dont go there.

[Tom_Doak]

I have some sympathy for those who want to see the great courses at a lower / more reasonable price, but my general answer to that is that they should try during the shoulder season when the place is not so busy.


I am amazed at how many requests I get from people to play Crystal Downs and how many of them are around the July 4 weekend.  I can't even get a tee time for myself then, and I'm a member!  Timing is everything.

[Kalen Braley]

As I understand it, the primary difference between Dynamic Pricing vs Price Gouging due to a Demand Shock is whether it was due to an expected/planned/anticipated event(s)...or not. So far I haven't seen any examples of unforeseen/unknown scenarios in this thread.

P.S.  I suppose there are some gray areas like hurricane season in September, but I believe business are still subject to being prosecuted in those situations.

[Tim Martin]

As I understand it, the primary difference between Dynamic Pricing vs Price Gouging due to a Demand Shock is whether it was due to an expected/planned/anticipated event(s)...or not. So far I haven't seen any examples of unforeseen/unknown scenarios in this thread.

P.S.  I suppose there are some gray areas like hurricane season in September, but I believe business are still subject to being prosecuted in those situations.

Kalen-Let me know how many hotels on Washington Road and Masters ticket resellers are prosecuted for price gouging. Lather, rinse repeat for the Super Bowl, Final Four, World Series etc. None of the pricing for golf during Masters week comes close to the percentage increases for hotels and event tickets. Right or wrong it’s the way of the world.

[Tim_Weiman]

I have some sympathy for those who want to see the great courses at a lower / more reasonable price, but my general answer to that is that they should try during the shoulder season when the place is not so busy.


I am amazed at how many requests I get from people to play Crystal Downs and how many of them are around the July 4 weekend.  I can't even get a tee time for myself then, and I'm a member!  Timing is everything.

Tom,


I actually thought there was an unwritten rule at Crystal Downs against members even having guests in the summer months. If so, nothing wrong with that.