[mike_malone]

These lists of 100 or 200 best courses kill me. I bet there are more than 2000 courses worldwide that are very good. I’m just curious what you think. If Doak 6 is very good than it’s more.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mayday


I believe it depends on one's own value - even a Doak 6 is considered by him to be a a "very good" course.


I also believe one doesn't have to play a certain rating to enjoy a game of golf.


That said, I had a quick look at my own database of Golf Magazine Top100 courses going back to 1985. I think it's over 200+ courses that have been rated: 14 = Doak 10, 20 odd = Doak 9, 50 odd  = Doak 8, 80 odd = Doak 7 & 50 odd = Doak 6


Of the current Top100 interestingly nearly all are Doak 7 and above (not incl. those I dont believe he has rated  = St Patrick's, Ardfin, Lido, Cabot St. Lucia etc)

[Tom_Doak]

I think there were 250-300 courses that I’ve rated a 7 in The Confidential Guide and maybe 100 more that one or another of my co-authors did.


There would be 3x as many if you included all the 6s.  That’s because the scale is meant to be something like a log scale or a Bell curve.

[Adrian_Stiff]

What did Painswick rate on the Doak scale?


Its probably the nearest you will get to a 1 on most peoples radar.
[/size][/color]
[/size]I love it but don't think I could really score it more than a 2.[/color]

[Matt MacIver]

Per CG Tom had it as a 5 after seeing in early 2000s and included it in the Gourmet section with the opening “I may hurt my credibility here…”, adding it was notable for its blind shots and lack of bunkers.  Has it been changed or “improved” since then? 

[mike_malone]

I’m using the Doak Scale as a standard. I don’t mean how many he lists but how many 6’s are in the world. I believe it is more than most think.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think the majority of US golfers have never played a Doak 7, and few have played a Doak 6. The scale is skewed to the well-traveled/connected golfer.

[Jeff Schley]

I think the majority of US golfers have never played a Doak 7, and few have played a Doak 6. The scale is skewed to the well-traveled/connected golfer.

Certainly, as I would guesstimate that 2/3 of them are private.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I think the majority of US golfers have never played a Doak 7, and few have played a Doak 6. The scale is skewed to the well-traveled/connected golfer.

Certainly, as I would guesstimate that 2/3 of them are private.

Glancing at the two Americas volumes of the CG I would guess that there are about 140 Doak 7s or better in the Americas and they are pretty much all private or high end resort like Pinehurst, Pebble, Bandon, Cabot.

So unless a golfer has access to private clubs, or has made an effort to go to this places, and has the wealth to afford it, then they will not have played a Doak 7 or better.

[Jeff Schley]

I think the majority of US golfers have never played a Doak 7, and few have played a Doak 6. The scale is skewed to the well-traveled/connected golfer.

Certainly, as I would guesstimate that 2/3 of them are private.

Glancing at the two Americas volumes of the CG I would guess that there are about 140 Doak 7s or better in the Americas and they are pretty much all private or high end resort like Pinehurst, Pebble, Bandon, Cabot.

So unless a golfer has access to private clubs, or has made an effort to go to this places, and has the wealth to afford it, then they will not have played a Doak 7 or better.

Wayne I was thinking the 6 or higher.  Any quick glance estimate for that?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Roughly 480 - about 300 in the "Summer" destinations and 180 in the Winter destinations.  That is those that were ranked 6 or better by Tom or one of the other guys if Tom didn't rate it.
@Tom Doak - any chance of you releasing a spreadsheet or database of courses with their rankings from the CG?  If you have the appendix from the books in a digital file you should be able to copy/paste into Excel.

[Jeff Schley]

Roughly 480 - about 300 in the "Summer" destinations and 180 in the Winter destinations.  That is those that were ranked 6 or better by Tom or one of the other guys if Tom didn't rate it.
@Tom Doak - any chance of you releasing a spreadsheet or database of courses with their rankings from the CG?  If you have the appendix from the books in a digital file you should be able to copy/paste into Excel.

I doubt Tom would be willing to give that up as it is just too valuable.  Really what we are wondering is what is the % of 6+ rated courses in the USA that are private?  Maybe it is much more than we thought. 80%?

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Tom Doak - any chance of you releasing a spreadsheet or database of courses with their rankings from the CG?  If you have the appendix from the books in a digital file you should be able to copy/paste into Excel.

I doubt Tom would be willing to give that up as it is just too valuable.  Really what we are wondering is what is the % of 6+ rated courses in the USA that are private?  Maybe it is much more than we thought. 80%?

It wouldn't be all that hard to scan the relevant pages and then use an image to text converter.  The back of the book has a list of them sorted from 10s to 0s. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Really what we are wondering is what is the % of 6+ rated courses in the USA that are private?  Maybe it is much more than we thought. 80%?

For 8s and above the only public are Pinehurst #2, Pebble, Caso de Campo, Streamsong Blue, Sawgrass, Streamsong Red, Cabo Del Sol.  That's 7 of 19 for the Americas Winter Destinations.  And there may be one or two more that are Public.

For summer destinations it is Pac Dunes, Bandon Trails, Old Mac, Cabot Links, Banff Springs, Cabot Cliffs,  Bethpage Black, Jasper, Yale (is it public).  That is 9 out of 41.

[Tom_Doak]

@Tom Doak - any chance of you releasing a spreadsheet or database of courses with their rankings from the CG?  If you have the appendix from the books in a digital file you should be able to copy/paste into Excel.

I doubt Tom would be willing to give that up as it is just too valuable.  Really what we are wondering is what is the % of 6+ rated courses in the USA that are private?  Maybe it is much more than we thought. 80%?

It wouldn't be all that hard to scan the relevant pages and then use an image to text converter.  The back of the book has a list of them sorted from 10s to 0s.

I would appreciate your not doing this (although probably some AI bot has already done it).  Copyrights used to matter.


I do have a master spreadsheet of all the courses for 5 volumes (on my old laptop - I’d better move a copy!) and will report back on the totals one of these days.


I don’t have the courses marked as public or private on that spreadsheet so that won’t be as easy to count.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
We all know rating courses is very subjective regardless of who you are and the criteria you are using to judge.  I personally use the Doak Scale as my go to 0-10 scale mainly because it makes sense to me and many people can relate to it. 


I am traveling and don’t have all my personal lists with me but I know I have over 500 courses that I have played that I give a 6 or higher too.  As such there has to be at least 1000 courses or more courses that would/should fall in this category.  Again it is all relative but there are a lot of really good courses out there which is why selecting the Top 100 will always be controversial with most golfers/critics/judges/raters,…

[Tim_Weiman]

@Tom Doak - any chance of you releasing a spreadsheet or database of courses with their rankings from the CG?  If you have the appendix from the books in a digital file you should be able to copy/paste into Excel.

I doubt Tom would be willing to give that up as it is just too valuable.  Really what we are wondering is what is the % of 6+ rated courses in the USA that are private?  Maybe it is much more than we thought. 80%?

It wouldn't be all that hard to scan the relevant pages and then use an image to text converter.  The back of the book has a list of them sorted from 10s to 0s.

Wayne,


I found it far more pleasurable to read the book(s) than any spreadsheet could provide.

[Matt Schoolfield]

@Tom Doak - any chance of you releasing a spreadsheet or database of courses with their rankings from the CG?  If you have the appendix from the books in a digital file you should be able to copy/paste into Excel.

I doubt Tom would be willing to give that up as it is just too valuable.  Really what we are wondering is what is the % of 6+ rated courses in the USA that are private?  Maybe it is much more than we thought. 80%?

It wouldn't be all that hard to scan the relevant pages and then use an image to text converter.  The back of the book has a list of them sorted from 10s to 0s.

I would appreciate your not doing this (although probably some AI bot has already done it).  Copyrights used to matter.

I do have a master spreadsheet of all the courses for 5 volumes (on my old laptop - I’d better move a copy!) and will report back on the totals one of these days.

I don’t have the courses marked as public or private on that spreadsheet so that won’t be as easy to count.

This is something I could probably put together pretty easily (as I have for the Club TFE reviews), and display in a variety of ways, and with limited access, but I don't think I would given Tom's reaction. I would also, obviously, consider removing the TFE mapping if the Fried Egg folks contacted me, even though there are no copyright issues there.

My main interest here was curiosity as to whether these ranking could actually fall under copyright, and that lead my to a surprisingly interesting article in the Vanderbilt Journal of Entertainment and Technology Law: James Grimmelmann, "Three Theories of Copyright in Ratings," 14 Vanderbilt Journal of Entertainment and Technology Law 851 (2012). Apparently American law isn't really sure where rankings like these stand, but I find some of the article's reasoning for copyright to apply in this case compelling, though it still seems extremely difficult argue they aren't facts.

I just feel like I want to remind everyone here, though, that you're allowed to just like what you like. One of the reasons I started the wiki was to try build a place where people can explore different architecture without having to decide whether it's good or bad.

[Tom_Doak]

I do have a master spreadsheet of all the courses for 5 volumes (on my old laptop - I’d better move a copy!) and will report back on the totals one of these days.

Tale of the tape below.


My own personal ratings of 1,693 courses seen:


10 = 14
  9 = 25
  8 = 62
  7 = 178 = 279 / 1693
  6 = 325 = 604 / 1693
  5 = 472
  4 = 358
  3 = 151
  2 = 70
  1 = 15
  0 = 23


With my three co-authors, we've seen 2,562 courses reported.


Consensus 7  =  312 / 2562
At least one 7 = 396
Consensus 6  =  730 / 2562
At least one 6 = 924




So I would guess there are less than 400 courses in the world we would say are a consensus 7 [average score > 6.5] and maybe as many as 1000 which would get a 6 or above.  And this number should be going up every year, as I'd like to think that new courses are often 6's or better, and that not so many of the courses that close would have been rated as highly.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Wayne,


I found it far more pleasurable to read the book(s) than any spreadsheet could provide.

Agreed, I have enjoyed reading the books and return to them quite often.  But this is more of a data issue and I think it would be interesting to have summary data, at least for those of us that are quant nerds.  Like how many courses by country that are ranked 10, 9, 8, 7, etc.
Ideally someone would create an exhaustive database of golf courses including location, date built, reno dates, GCA(s), status - private/public/resort, green fees, rating inclusion, etc.  Something much more inclusive than just the ratings from the CG.

I am in Canada and have a spreadsheet that I maintain with ratings history for the SCOREGolf Canadian ratings since 2000, and I also include Doak ratings, where available, and other ratings.  But it isn't easy to maintain as names are not always consistent from one list to the next.  I have to think that there are folks in the US that have similar lists.

To be honest, I am surprised that there isn't a website with such a database, given how the internet has niche sights with amazing minutiae in some areas - take hockeyfights.com as an example.

[Tim_Weiman]

Wayne,


What value would such a database have?

[Wayne_Kozun]

What value would such a database have?

What value does a database of every hockey fight ever have? 
What value is there for a discussion group about Golf Course Architecture?  If there is a discussion group about Golf Course Architecture then why not have a comprehensive database of Golf Courses/Golf Course Architecture?

It is just something of interest and would let you summarize information.  What is the distribution of rankings for Tom Doak's courses?  Or Tom Fazio's courses?  Or C&C's?  How many courses built after 1990 have ratings of 9 or better?
Why does the CG list the courses sorted by rating at the back of the book, which is pretty much the same as what would be in a database, along with additional info.

[Tim_Weiman]

What value would such a database have?

What value does a database of every hockey fight ever have? 
What value is there for a discussion group about Golf Course Architecture?  If there is a discussion group about Golf Course Architecture then why not have a comprehensive database of Golf Courses/Golf Course Architecture?

It is just something of interest and would let you summarize information.  What is the distribution of rankings for Tom Doak's courses?  Or Tom Fazio's courses?  Or C&C's?  How many courses built after 1990 have ratings of 9 or better?
Why does the CG list the courses sorted by rating at the back of the book, which is pretty much the same as what would be in a database, along with additional info.

Wayne,


What value does a discussion group about golf architecture have?


I view golf courses as an art form. Hopefully, the discussion will help people understand what makes a golf course worth spending one’s time and money to experience.

[Matt Schoolfield]

What value would such a database have?

What value does a database of every hockey fight ever have? 
What value is there for a discussion group about Golf Course Architecture?  If there is a discussion group about Golf Course Architecture then why not have a comprehensive database of Golf Courses/Golf Course Architecture?

It is just something of interest and would let you summarize information.  What is the distribution of rankings for Tom Doak's courses?  Or Tom Fazio's courses?  Or C&C's?  How many courses built after 1990 have ratings of 9 or better?
Why does the CG list the courses sorted by rating at the back of the book, which is pretty much the same as what would be in a database, along with additional info.

Wayne,


What value does a discussion group about golf architecture have?


I view golf courses as an art form. Hopefully, the discussion will help people understand what makes a golf course worth spending one’s time and money to experience.

So this is actually the debate that was in the essay I pointed out previously. If the Tom's ratings are hard facts, then Wayne is perfectly right to want to sort/examine them to try to extract value, because if the high ratings mean that they are, in fact, great courses, we can learn which course are great, and try to find out what qualities make these things great.

However, if Tom's ratings are just his opinion, then Tim makes a very reasonable point, since it makes little sense for us to examine the standard deviation of someone's opinion, since opinions, while being pose by someone in an authoritative position, needn't follow hard-and-fast rules, and can be seen as just a feeling.

It's actually quite a subtle argument, which is why I found it noteworthy.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt,


IMO, Tom is one of the best writers on golf architecture because of his ability to succinctly express what is noteworthy about a golf course. I view that as the real strength of Tom’s Confidential Guide, not the number rating itself.


Like most people, I don’t have an unlimited amount of time and money for travel to experience different golf courses. Hence, I have to be selective and simply have more interest in some than others.


Today we have so many well produced videos and clearly they have some value. However, I still value the opinions of certain people I know and trust regarding their ability to assess a golf course.

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