Philmont Country Club

[wsmorrison]

If we didn't have plans for Rolling Green, there are newspaper accounts, corraboration from Connie Lagerman, and other historical sources that verify his involvement.  It is most curious that there is hardly any record at all regarding Philmont's architectural history.
 
I don't think that until Bob Labbance uncovered the letter from J.Wood Platt that there was any questioning of Flynn's involvement at Philmont.  You say it has been years.  Is that really so?  Some may have questioned the ninth hole, but clearly at one time it was considered in a far different manner.  

Speculation is one thing, how we move towards a higher degree of proof is the hard part.  Have any Willie Park, Jr. experts (are there any?) looked at the Philmont North layout and remarked on design tendencies that are evidence of Park?

[wsmorrison]

"Will Philmont be barred from further involvement in the Flynn Cup if North turns out to be a Park/Gordon course? "

Andy Karff seems to run the Flynn Cup and he is from Philmont.  If proof does come to light that there was no Flynn involvement at Philmont, then surely its association with the Flynn Cup would be jeopardized.  But who knows?  We may never find an answer to this question.  

According to Linc Roden III, years ago the story was that the South was designed by Ross.  I wonder how the story got started that Park did the South and Flynn did the North.  There's probably a little bit of truth to both statements.   Maybe Park did some work at (Reid's?) Philmont South and maybe Flynn did some work at (Park's?) Philmont North.  All it is is a whole lot of speculation for now.

[Mark_Fine]

I wonder if anyone will bring this up during the Flynn Cup (which is this Friday).  If anyone asks during my after dinner presentation, I will simply suggest that it is possible that they may be at the wrong golf tournament    

[wsmorrison]

Flynn Cup, Karff Cup.  No big deal.  Its easy enough to re-engrave the trophy, right?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Fellows,

I think I'm beginning to understand why some think William Flynn was involved with Philmont.

The research I've been doing indicates that Hugh Wilson and Herbert Strouse (who was the head of the Greens Committe) did major changes to Philmont South in the 1915-1917 timeframe, including the building of two completely new holes (today's 10 & 11), as well as significant feature changes, most if not all of the bunkering, such that by 1917 Wilson and Strouse were given design credit for the South course in one local newspaper account.

It would seem quite reasonable to believe that William Flynn would have been part of that effort, as he and Wilson were working together in a number of projects at Merion to make changes for the 1916 Amateur, and Flynn had perfected a way to use  (and move) existing turf from one area to another during these changes.   

I guess the real question is why the club decided to use Willie Park Jr., and not William Flynn and/or Hugh Wilson (we have evidence that he was still working architecturally by 1922) when building their second course (North course) in 1922.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Tom and I have known for a while now that Wilson was credited with working on 2 holes on the South Course.  We also speculated that Flynn was likely involved in some capacity at that point.  Until Joe came up with his compilation of articles, we didn't know which 2 holes they were.  Strouse's contributions and references to other work were completely new to us.  I agree with you that Flynn was involved in some capacity at that point.  He and Wilson became very close and worked together on many refinements at Merion East and the development of Merion West.  There is some archival evidence that Wilson visited Flynn at Kittansett, he and Flynn did redesign work at North Hills and Wilson worked with Flynn at Marble Hall (now Green Valley CC) at the time of his death.  It is possible that Flynn may have helped out at Phoenixville CC (if Wilson in fact designed the course) and Wilson may have contributed at Doylestown and CC Harrisburg.  Wilson and Flynn had the added value of being very far ahead of the agronomy learning curve at that time and these skills in redesigning courses would come in very handy.

Willie Park, Jr. was much more well-known than Flynn during the design and construction of the North Course.  Not only that, but he came from Scotland and was an Open champion.   Although many renovations were made to the East Course at Merion, Flynn's portfolio was still pretty small (it never amounted to more than 45 or so courses designed and built).  Except for Lancaster CC and Cherry Hills CC, most of his best courses would not come about for a few more years.  If it was Willie Park, Jr. that designed the North Course at Philmont (and it seems that way at this point), they chose very well.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

I think I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes.

I became aware of Wilson's work at Philmont South a few weeks ago...in fact, you may have told me something even longer ago...

But I never made the connection to the missing Flynn attribute til sitting around this afternoon and suddenly...duh!   

There's an article I came upon that describes the work in some detail (although this particular article doesn't mention Wilson, but others do), and says that the 10th hole was inspired by Pine Valley, with the diagonal carry over sand.    I thought that was a particularly interesting comment.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

I think I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes.

I became aware of Wilson's work at Philmont South a few weeks ago...in fact, you may have told me something even longer ago...

But I never made the connection to the missing Flynn attribute til sitting around this afternoon and suddenly...duh!   

There's an article I came upon that describes the work in some detail (although this particular article doesn't mention Wilson, but others do), and says that the 10th hole was inspired by Pine Valley, with the diagonal carry over sand.    I thought that was a particularly interesting comment.

Today's carry is over the maintenance building.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

Tom and I have known for a while now that Wilson was credited with working on 2 holes on the South Course.  We also speculated that Flynn was likely involved in some capacity at that point.  Until Joe came up with his compilation of articles, we didn't know which 2 holes they were.  Strouse's contributions and references to other work were completely new to us.  I agree with you that Flynn was involved in some capacity at that point.  He and Wilson became very close and worked together on many refinements at Merion East and the development of Merion West.  There is some archival evidence that Wilson visited Flynn at Kittansett, he and Flynn did redesign work at North Hills and Wilson worked with Flynn at Marble Hall (now Green Valley CC) at the time of his death.  It is possible that Flynn may have helped out at Phoenixville CC (if Wilson in fact designed the course) and Wilson may have contributed at Doylestown and CC Harrisburg.  Wilson and Flynn had the added value of being very far ahead of the agronomy learning curve at that time and these skills in redesigning courses would come in very handy.

Willie Park, Jr. was much more well-known than Flynn during the design and construction of the North Course.  Not only that, but he came from Scotland and was an Open champion.   Although many renovations were made to the East Course at Merion, Flynn's portfolio was still pretty small (it never amounted to more than 45 or so courses designed and built).  Except for Lancaster CC and Cherry Hills CC, most of his best courses would not come about for a few more years.  If it was Willie Park, Jr. that designed the North Course at Philmont (and it seems that way at this point), they chose very well.