Why does Torrey Pines have some of the most challenging greens on the PGA Tour?

[Ben Hollerbach]

'It just seems like every year players don't make a lot of putts on those greens'

I heard this comment the other day in response to this years tournament and it caught me by surprise. Looked it up and Torrey South ranks 1st in Strokes Gained Difficulty for all regular tour venues.

The greens at Torrey are 0.002 strokes easier than Augusta National and 0.002 strokes more challenging than Riviera, 2 courses who's greens have be discussed and complemented ad nauseam. But I don't recall every seeing the same for Torrey.

So, Why does Torrey Pines have some of the most challenging greens on the PGA Tour?

[Matt_Cohn]

Mostly because they’re somewhat bumpy.


They also have more slope than you’d think—I know Rees Jones’ reputation is for flat shelves separated by slopes, but the shelves at Torrey are not flat! That was my biggest surprise when I played there.

[Tom_Doak]

Mostly because they’re somewhat bumpy.


They also have more slope than you’d think—I know Rees Jones’ reputation is for flat shelves separated by slopes, but the shelves at Torrey are not flat! That was my biggest surprise when I played there.

The original greens had a bunch of tilt (that was the style of the 50s) and Rees just added his shelves into that framework.


But they are also pos annua greens on a busy public course, so they are bumpier than most greens the Tour sees.  That’s why some players don’t go there.

[Pete Lavallee]

As someone who plays at Torrey once a month I would disagree with the statement that the greens are bumpy. With the application of growth inhibitors like PRIMO those days are well in the rear view mirror. Now this is at the speeds the general public sees which are around 9.5-10.0. At the 12.5 the Tour sees this might amplify the imperfections. Trust me when we walk off the course we don’t say “these greens suck”, we say “wow the greens were great”! They need consistently good conditions to justify the +$250 rate for out of towners. I can’t honestly think of a public course in San Diego Co. with better Poa Annua greens than Torrey South! Now the North Course is a different story as it’s transitioning from bent to Poa and they are very bumpy.


I can sympathize with those who find them difficult to read. They all have three sections separated by ridges. Each of these sections have no connection to the landscape they are built on; i.e. they are completely manufactured with the intent to produce difficulty not predictably. As Tom says with the original steeply sloped back to front greens you knew what the break was, it was just a question of how much. Now you are searching for clues as to how each section is going to break. One might think everything breaks towards the Ocean, however this is clearly not the case.

[David Ober]

As someone who plays at Torrey once a month I would disagree with the statement that the greens are bumpy. With the application of growth inhibitors like PRIMO those days are well in the rear view mirror. Now this is at the speeds the general public sees which are around 9.5-10.0. At the 12.5 the Tour sees this might amplify the imperfections. Trust me when we walk off the course we don’t say “these greens suck”, we say “wow the greens were great”! They need consistently good conditions to justify the +$250 rate for out of towners. I can’t honestly think of a public course in San Diego Co. with better Poa Annua greens than Torrey South! Now the North Course is a different story as it’s transitioning from bent to Poa and they are very bumpy.


I can sympathize with those who find them difficult to read. They all have three sections separated by ridges. Each of these sections have no connection to the landscape they are built on; i.e. they are completely manufactured with the intent to produce difficulty not predictably. As Tom says with the original steeply sloped back to front greens you knew what the break was, it was just a question of how much. Now you are searching for clues as to how each section is going to break. One might think everything breaks towards the Ocean, however this is clearly not the case.

100% Pete. I played Torrey several months ago in the San Diego City Senior and I was shocked at how tough the greens were. And they actually rolled quite well. I did NOT remember that from when I had played years ago.


I played Torrey the day after Tiger won the last time there in 2013 (same tees, same pins, etc.), and I played well, putted well, and scored well. I didn't remember the greens being difficult at all -- it was just the length and the deep rough that kept me from posting a really nice score.

But playing several months ago ... Wow, they were TOUGH. Some of the toughest I have ever played. When were the greens renovated/updated/re-done?

[Matt_Cohn]

And they actually rolled quite well.

I felt this too when I played in July/August. But I think it's different in January. I'm just going off of what many pro's said last week.

[astavrides]

I watched the telecast on Sunday and the ground level shots showed the putts bouncing up and down with some frequency, and the majority of putts didn't roll true--they wobbled from side to side. Poa annua, I suspect, was the culprit. Maybe the heavy rain earlier in the week also had something to do with it. Most bumpy I can recall since the US Open at Chambers Bay, but not nearly as bad as they were that week at Chambers Bay. (Not that I watch every week and I obviously could be forgetting some tournaments).

[AChao]

In addition to the good points mentioned above, let me add a few additional thoughts on why putting stats are higher at Torrey ... I played last Tuesday and have played the day before the tournament a few times ...
1)  For the South Course, the greens are quite good early in the day, but they seem to become worse faster than other greens I've played.    2)  It doesn't rain much in San Diego, except the week leading-up to the Farmers it seems.  I think the rain may contribute to 1) above and also to 3)  3)  Because the rough always seems to be heavier than planned / expected, it's hard to chip closer on missed greens ... there might be more chips that wind-up closer to 7-10 feet than 5-8 feet ... which may lead to worse putting stats.  (I don't have data, but this seems to be the case when I watch my foursome and our pros).   4)  There are two courses so the pros have to spread out their time ... and  5)  The start is now on Wednesday which also reduces practice time and getting to know the greens a little.   6)  For the North Course, the transition is just tough ... I don't know if they can do any thing else.   7)  The field may be weaker - I think some do skip because it's a public course with poa greens, but I do think a lot come because they like the area and/or they are in the US or from far away and they might as well play since they can get in the tournament. 

I do have to say that the course has been in pretty good shape in the summer.  Also, I was surprised at how good the greens were on the South Course at 6:40 am the first time I played the day before the tournament. 

[John Crowley]

Mostly because they’re somewhat bumpy.


They also have more slope than you’d think—I know Rees Jones’ reputation is for flat shelves separated by slopes, but the shelves at Torrey are not flat! That was my biggest surprise when I played there.

The original greens had a bunch of tilt (that was the style of the 50s) and Rees just added his shelves into that framework.


But they are also pos annua greens on a busy public course, so they are bumpier than most greens the Tour sees.  That’s why some players don’t go there.

For several years I played my winter golf at TP, pre and post Rees J.


They were bumpy. It’s mainly the Poa.


There were some days when they were better than most. I suspect they had been rolled those days.

[Ben Hollerbach]

3)  Because the rough always seems to be heavier than planned / expected, it's hard to chip closer on missed greens ... there might be more chips that wind-up closer to 7-10 feet than 5-8 feet ... which may lead to worse putting stats.  (I don't have data, but this seems to be the case when I watch my foursome and our pros).   

 7)  The field may be weaker - I think some do skip because it's a public course with poa greens, but I do think a lot come because they like the area and/or they are in the US or from far away and they might as well play since they can get in the tournament. 

Fair points, but for SG data these two factors are normalized. Interesting connection to your point 3, Torrey's greens are the most difficult to putt from 5'-15'.

Considering the 3 most difficult sets of greens on tour all happen to be the only 3 sets of Poa annua on tour, and all 3 tournaments are played early in the season in California is condition plus climate the silver bullet for difficulty?

Pebbles greens played nearly neutral (-0.001) during the 2019 US Open, while traditionally they play -0.017 during the AT&T. But with that in mind, while Torrey's greens did play easier during the 2021 US Open, it wasn't by much (-0.014 vs. -0.020). Even in June they played more difficult than any other non-Poa regular PGA tour venue.

So the Poa is clearly important, but it isn't the only factor making the greens at Torrey challenging. Should more time be spent studying the greens  here? For a course that is often panned as being bleh, a poor course on a great site, it would seem to be valuable to expand upon what appears to be one of the only redeeming qualities of the course.