News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2024, 06:38:50 AM »
Mark:  You’re right. The thread evolved (devolved?) into a discussion of greens 40 yards short of greens.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2024, 11:02:06 AM »
Jim I would agree,

My initial thought was Pete Dye and Jim Engh use these long bunkers that start well before the green AND extend all the way to it.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2024, 12:02:32 PM »
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6299671,-73.686485,192m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkwNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D


This is Seawane Golf Club on Long Island. This is the 17th hole - it's a par 5 about 530 or so. Just about on the edge of reachable for me if the wind is in the right place. But if you don't hit your second quite right and leak it, you have a 40-50 yard bunker shot over sand all the way to the green. I have more than once hit my third and fourth shots from the same bunker. It's such a difficult shot and I'm too stupid to play it out to the left. Plus that golf course is seriously hard, so I'm always trying to cling on for dear life by the time I get to 17. There are other spots on this course with big bunkers short of the green. One of those is 11 (here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6341194,-73.676533,192m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkwNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), which is a difficult par 3, but that whole bunker is not really in play for the better player, so it just seems mean to me to inflict that on what would only be visited by higher handicaps. It's visually quite cool, but I'm not a huge fan of it there. 17 it's a beast for everybody, so that feels more reasonable (and it's on a par 5 that's gettable without it).

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2024, 09:52:16 PM »
A couple of such bunkers on my home course are set so that the opening to the green is angled, one left and one right. If you are on the wrong side of the fairway, you have to play over the front of the bunker.  One is a short 4 and the other medium.  Regardless, I try to lay up in front of the green to get a straight chip or pitch onto the green.  This is a Ross course that's been "redone" and I do not know if these two bunkers are in places where bunkers were originally put by Ross.  As used here, I think they are worthy features.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2024, 10:55:58 AM »
I also like this feature on reachable par 5 approaches. A good example is Rees Jones' Huntsville GC in Pennsylvania has this on both sides of the first hole's approach. Makes for some proportionality in the penalty for misses if you go for the green in two. The more off your shot is the longer a bunker shot you'll face. Definitely a different proposition if you know a 50 yard bunker shot is in the cards for a bailout miss as opposed to a 50 yard pitch shot out of the rough. If you lay up the bunkers act as any greenside bunkers given that you'll have a wedge or 9-iron into the green. Not strategic from a angle of attack perspective, but it is strategic as far as how aggressively you play your second shot.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2024, 12:01:53 PM »
   These bunkers definitely belong on reachable par 5’s and 4’s. It’s called risk/reward, hardly a novel concept. Where they don’t belong is on long oar 4’s where primarily weaker players hit into them. And when doing a restoration, putting a bunker 40 yards short of a green on a 450 yard hole because that’s where a great architect put it 100 years ago is just lazy. 100 years ago, that bunker challenged good players who were 50-75 yards shorter than today’s good players.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2024, 12:43:43 PM »
Jim,
I agree with most of what you said except about the bunker 40 yards short of the green on a 450 yard hole.  If the hole is 450 yards from the tips then it is likely much shorter from the other tees and that bunker likely works as an interesting thought provoking hazard for all players.  Weaker golfers playing the hole from 450 likely won’t reach that bunker in two shots so they will be playing a relatively short shot over or around it (390 yards is what most bogie golfers can manage distance wise in two shots).  Better players will have to deal with it especially if conditions are firm and fast.  Of course it depends a lot on whether it is a centerline hazard or flanking.  But I like the concept especially if not over used. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2024, 01:02:38 PM »
   These bunkers definitely belong on reachable par 5’s and 4’s. It’s called risk/reward, hardly a novel concept. Where they don’t belong is on long oar 4’s where primarily weaker players hit into them. And when doing a restoration, putting a bunker 40 yards short of a green on a 450 yard hole because that’s where a great architect put it 100 years ago is just lazy. 100 years ago, that bunker challenged good players who were 50-75 yards shorter than today’s good players.


What's lazy is your repeated banging on about other people's business.  I've put in a whole lot of my time and effort over the years trying to help preserve the best work of the architects who came before me.  You can disagree with my decisions, which matters zero because you're not a member of those clubs, but you ought to look at my frequent flyer balance before you call me lazy.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2024, 01:05:55 PM by Tom_Doak »

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2024, 01:45:20 PM »
One thing to bear in mind is that good players aren't completely immune to those sorts of hazards. It's not quite what we're talking about here, because the whole bunker is 50 yards short of the green, but 18 on WHO has a bunker like that. The hole is about 400 yards on the nose and that bunker is not really in play for a good player who hits a good drive, but if you drive it in the heather or fairway bunkers, then that bunker is absolutely 100% in play and hitting it in there after driving in the heather is a good way to make double. It's probably still true that higher handicaps end up in that bunker more often than lower handicaps, but I imagine that's true of all bunkers pretty much anywhere.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2024, 02:33:16 PM »
Admittedly didnt read through the whole thread....but, my $0.2...:


1. Could it be that sometimes the greens of these older courses have gotten smaller after years of mowing? Greenside bunkers 50-80 years ago may now be 6-10 yards away from the puuting surface.


2. Could they be intentional so that the player THINKS they are greenside when, in fact, there is a 10-30 yard distance between bunker lip and putting surface, yet from the FW, it looks adjacent?


in the past, some may have referred to this as a "trompe de l'oeil" or illusionary effect.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2024, 02:37:38 PM »
Admittedly didnt read through the whole thread....but, my $0.2...:


1. Could it be that sometimes the greens of these older courses have gotten smaller after years of mowing? Greenside bunkers 50-80 years ago may now be 6-10 yards away from the puuting surface.


2. Could they be intentional so that the player THINKS they are greenside when, in fact, there is a 10-30 yard distance between bunker lip and putting surface, yet from the FW, it looks adjacent?


in the past, some may have referred to this as a "trompe de l'oeil" or illusionary effect.


It's definitely true that a bunker short of the green can flummox your distance control, but with the ubiquitousness of range finders these days I don't think it has much of an effect anymore.


Also two things tend to happen over time. The lips on bunkers get bigger as every time someone hits a shot out of a bunker, they add a little bit of sand on the lip of the bunker. Over time they grow and those bunkers that act as a deceiver for distance tend to get more so over time as they get larger. And greens do tend to get smaller. I know that both of my clubs in the UK have at times had to deliberately cut the greens larger to offset that drift that happens.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2024, 05:01:17 PM »
    Tom: I love your work. You’re Tom Doak and I’m not. Enough said.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2024, 05:36:49 PM »
“ Green side bunkers that start well before the green”
AKA Mayday

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2024, 06:05:19 PM »
I spent the last few days playing a renovated classic that has this feature on perhaps 4-5 holes. Two of the occurrences are medium length par 4’s and the remaining occurrences are all par 5’s. On the par fours, the green opening is quite wide and the greenside bunker that starts well before the green is only on one side. The par fives are more varied in the use of this feature. I liked the use of it in all cases.



All that to say, I have no problem with this feature *IF* there’s ample room to play away on holes where it’s already hard to score. On par fives? Who cares. Make the shot if you want to get home in two.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2024, 06:24:42 PM »
Perry Maxwell placed a cross bunker about 20-30 yards short of the green (it doesn't go all the way to the green) on the 6th hole at Prairie Dunes.  It is serves as a great optical illusion for players in the fairway as it looks like you just need to clear it to be on the green although you find out as you get to the green that there is about a 20 yard long hollow in front of the putting surface.  I think it works brilliantly but it's effect has probably been greatly mitigated over the years by the use of GPS.


https://golf.com/travel/prairie-dunes-6th-strategic-thinking/



"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2024, 06:47:52 PM »
I'll second an early comment about the difficulty of this type of hazard.  A long greenside bunker that starts significantly short of the green, especially on the right side, is a very risky hazard for someone attempting to hit a long shot onto the green.

The long bunker that extends the final 80-100 yards to the 18th green at Pebble Beach has not been mentioned.  In that case, the bunker also guards against errant shots bouncing onto the rocky beach.  This occasionally leaves the pros a 60-90 yard shot to the green from the sand during the yearly pro-am tournament.
 

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2024, 06:49:31 PM »
Just occurred to me that Bethpage Black is pretty much the poster child for this sort of bunkering and it is all very much in play even for good players. They quite dictate the lay up play after a drive that doesn't find the fairway.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2024, 08:11:47 PM »
Michael,
If you think hard you will realize a zillion courses have this feature in play  ;D


By the way, I know we have digressed to bunkers just short of the green as well as greenside bunkers that start well before the green.  Those bunkers can be very much influential in strategy especially in firm fast conditions (regardless of whether you have a range finder or not).  We have a bunker at Lehigh in the center of the fairway short of the green on number 10 that Mike Malone knows quite well. That bunker is sometimes not even seen by most players when conditions are soft, but when conditions are firm and the pin is particularly in the front of the green, it’s an extremely influential bunker for everyone regardless of ability.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2024, 09:15:45 PM by Mark_Fine »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2024, 09:11:59 PM »
Michael,
If you think hard you will realize a zillion courses have this feature in play  ;D


By the way, I know have digressed to bunkers just short of the green as well as greenside bunkers that start well before the green.  Those bunkers can be very much influential in strategy especially in firm fast conditions (regardless of whether you have a range finder or not).  We have a bunker at Lehigh in the center of the fairway short of the green on number 10 that Mike Malone knows quite well. That bunker is sometimes not even seen by most players when conditions are soft, but when conditions are firm and the pin is particularly in the front of the green, it’s an extremely influential bunker for everyone regardless of ability.




I love that bunker on 10 at Lehigh and think discussing those kind of bunkers is worthwhile. Also know many courses have the bunkers that start well before the green and then extend along the side of the green.
I just think that it’s worth discussing how they are a different animal than bunkers that begin at the green.


After my friend John Mayhugh played Rolling Green he ,upon my request , sent me a detailed reaction to the course. After about 11 he felt that bunkers on both sides were getting to feel repetitive.


It got me thinking of a place we could move a greenside bunker that starts away from the green into a spot like Lehigh 10. I thought of our second hole where the land short of the green has a right kick to it. The super set me straight. “ Mr. Malone we won’t be moving those new bunkers for at least 20 years!”. 
AKA Mayday

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2024, 02:41:30 AM »
   These bunkers definitely belong on reachable par 5’s and 4’s. It’s called risk/reward, hardly a novel concept. Where they don’t belong is on long oar 4’s where primarily weaker players hit into them. And when doing a restoration, putting a bunker 40 yards short of a green on a 450 yard hole because that’s where a great architect put it 100 years ago is just lazy. 100 years ago, that bunker challenged good players who were 50-75 yards shorter than today’s good players.

Weaker players enjoy a challenge just as much as good players. As is nearly always the case with me, I have no issue with this concept employed judiciously on long par 4s and long par 3s. Codification is lazy architecture.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2024, 09:57:38 AM »
   These bunkers definitely belong on reachable par 5’s and 4’s. It’s called risk/reward, hardly a novel concept. Where they don’t belong is on long oar 4’s where primarily weaker players hit into them. And when doing a restoration, putting a bunker 40 yards short of a green on a 450 yard hole because that’s where a great architect put it 100 years ago is just lazy. 100 years ago, that bunker challenged good players who were 50-75 yards shorter than today’s good players.

Weaker players enjoy a challenge just as much as good players. As is nearly always the case with me, I have no issue with this concept employed judiciously on long par 4s and long par 3s. Codification is lazy architecture.

Ciao


Aside from anything else, a long par 4 and a short par 5 frequently differ by little more than a number on a scorecard. Likewise a long par 3 and a short par 4.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2024, 09:42:37 AM »
Over the years, I gradually trimmed greenside bunkers back to at least the front of the green.  I have watched, and also seen the stats of how many average players miss short and especially short right.


The general theory is that lateral bunkers challenge everyone. Even tour pros have a dispersion pattern from left to right as shots get longer.  Yes, theirs is more like 5-10% of approach shot laterally, vs. perhaps 15% of the bogey player, but they may also be aiming closer to the pin because of that skill and lateral bunkers are still in play.  They have some more distance control issues on shorter approach shots.  Otherwise, short bunkers only challenge the bogey player when they don't get full distance on an approach shot.  So, why use them? 


Of course, they look great in many cases.  If you study most bunkers, the first few yards are almost always invisible to the player.  Only the back edge of the bunker flashed up, is visible.  So, you will see many of my courses where I converted what I drew as sand to a grass bunker in front.  Fazio always called those lead in bunkers, as the depression in front sometimes helps the visibility of the bunker.  The grass depression often keeps a rolling bad shot out of the sand.


On most projects, architects need to minimize sand for construction and future maintenance costs, so choosing to use (mostly) adjacent greenside bunkers only can limit sand cost and speed play and still maintain the challenge for the better player.  If the mantra is "challenge for the good player, but playable for all" severely limiting bunkers that are well in front of the green (i.e., Pete Dye long strip bunkers) is one good way to achieve those goals.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back