[Tim Liddy]

Is TPC Sawgrass the quintessential American golf course design?  Greens and fairways hard against water with timber walls, large simple bunker shapes accented by small pot bunkers, hillocks and mounding guarding fairways, water everywhere. An original design aesthetic using historic features of golf design in a new and different way emphazing shot values, shot balance, angles and intimidation.

[Kalen Braley]

This topic came up a couple of years back and the responses were varied.

VK in reply 19 asserted same, but didn't have any buyers..

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70899.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:


I'd say the TPC is the quintessential MODERN design, or maybe the quintessential PETE DYE design.  But to ignore the Golden Age is sticking your head in the sand.


If I had to vote for the quintessential AMERICAN golf course, I think I'd go for Merion.

[Mike Hendren]

I might suggest Peachtree or Holston Hills as quintessential American courses. Nothing too cute or site specific but solid parkland golf over rolling terrain. 


Arguably no course reflects the genius of the architect better than TPC Sawgrass.  It’s brilliant - visually stunning but surprisingly negotiable.  It might be my favorite modern in America. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sawgrass is not the course that PD originally designed. I have played it three different times in three different iterations. The first time I played it, it was scruffy and sandy and didn't have as much water. It was really hard.

[Tom_Doak]

Sawgrass is not the course that PD originally designed. I have played it three different times in three different iterations. The first time I played it, it was scruffy and sandy and didn't have as much water. It was really hard.

Tommy:


I actually just sent all of my slides of the course from 1981-83 to Jacksonville as they are looking to restore more of the course to the way it was.  I agree it's changed a lot.  But I'm confused by your comment that "it didn't have as much water".  Where have they added water?  It's been a long time since I was back there, but there was water galore from day one.

[Sean_A]

Is TPC Sawgrass the quintessential American golf course design?  Greens and fairways hard against water with timber walls, large simple bunker shapes accented by small pot bunkers, hillocks and mounding guarding fairways, water everywhere. An original design aesthetic using historic features of golf design in a new and different way emphazing shot values, shot balance, angles and intimidation.

Far from it in my book. Tons of water. Ugly sand adjacent to water. Horrible cut patterns. Dopey circular bunkers in the rough. Sawgrass doesn’t do much for me, but then it wasn’t meant for me.

Ciao

[cary lichtenstein]

50 years ago after watching the first Tournamnet, I flew out the next friday nite to play TPC Sawgrass. In those days, the course was ridiculously difficult. The greens were a nightmare, but my best recollection was the 17th. With a 20+ mph wind in my face, I hit 8 iron in the water, teed up again and hit another 8 in the water, followed by 2 7 irons in the water, I pulled out a 6 iron, hit the green and bounced in the water behind, then again.


I was out of balls, so I went to my wife's bag, and she said "get in the cart, you don't have a club that can hit and hold the green", thus my 50 year old memory.


I watch this tournament every year and I have to say, I'm glued to the TV, there is so much danger and drama, I love it. What a great tournament this year.

[Michael Morandi]

Can someone explain what the 100 yard bunker from the tee to the green on the right side of 13 is all about?  Only the high handicappers would hit in it and they are least equipped to deal with it.

[Tim Liddy]

Like Frank Lloyd Wright and Frank Gehry in architecture, TPC Sawgrass represents a new artistic path in golf course architecture - and truly American. It reminds me of a quote by Harry Wolf discussing the wonderful work of Landscape Architect Dan Kiley, “In all of Dan’s work one sees and learns that one need not shy away from the hand of man, that the vibrancy occurs when man’s mark intersects with nature and that the clearer the mark the more powerful the result. One learns that Naturalism is void of power like any counterfeit.”

[Jim_Coleman]

Can someone explain what the 100 yard bunker from the tee to the green on the right side of 13 is all about?  Only the high handicappers would hit in it and they are least equipped to deal with it.


    I very much agree that bunkers that only punish high handicappers is bad architecture. This comes up often in restorations when bunkers are moved back to where they were dozens of years earlier.
  But, sometimes bunkers have a purpose other than penalizing a wayward shot. Sometimes they are placed to help paint an aesthetically pleasing picture, and that is a legitimate architectural goal. At TPC, I think the bunkers paint a stunning picture.

[PCCraig]

It's a wonderful golf course but it's become too sterilized. The ring of rough around the island green this past week was ridiculous. Clearly the course doesn't present the same challenges it used to, partly due to the presentation.


Obviously never played it back in the 1980's, but wish they would bring that look/feel back.

[Rob Marshall]

Can someone explain what the 100 yard bunker from the tee to the green on the right side of 13 is all about?  Only the high handicappers would hit in it and they are least equipped to deal with it.


    I very much agree that bunkers that only punish high handicappers is bad architecture. This comes up often in restorations when bunkers are moved back to where they were dozens of years earlier.
  But, sometimes bunkers have a purpose other than penalizing a wayward shot. Sometimes they are placed to help paint an aesthetically pleasing picture, and that is a legitimate architectural goal. At TPC, I think the bunkers paint a stunning picture.

Monroe CC is full of them. I think they wanted to bring all the bunkers back to the original Ross positions. Gil Hanse did the renovation. It looks greats and I think its better than our club where the bunkers are all basically the same and the younger guys blow them over them by 40 or 50 yards.

[Kalen Braley]

Stylistically, TPC Sawgrass is certainly going for something different when it comes to bunkering.

Of the 14 non Par 3 holes only two of them, 16 & 18, are devoid of the long/skinny bunkers that extend 100+ yards (and in multiple spots on holes like 5, 7, 10 etc.).  The top shot bunker on 13 doesn't seem that out of place, especially when considering 3 also has a large one the pros would never get in either.

If Sawgrass ever ran up against budgetary concerns it would seem they could eliminate at least half of the bunker square footage course wide with zero impact on The Players tourney.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played TPC Sawgrass and very much enjoyed the round and would very much look forward to going back and playing it again.  With that being said I thought at the professional level that the course was kind of a mixed bag.  It apparently had been overseeded creating what appeared to me to be inconsistent conditioning.  Many tee shots would hit a fairway and have very little, if any roll. Others would hit and run out into the rough or pine straw.  The thick rough was handled amazingly well by some of the players where they had the strength to get it out and be able to get a feel of how much roll, or lack thereof, there would be.  The pine straw was not that difficult for most players and to be able to hit the shot they wanted.  I think ANGC does a better job creating more uniform conditions with respect to how balls bounce in fairways and could you just imagine what ANGC would be like with rough that they had at TPC.  In some ways I think that they are trying to find ways to make the course more difficult at the professional level considering how far they are hitting the ball - look at Wyndham Clark on 18 hitting a long iron off the tee and I believe an 8 iron second shot to within birdie range.

[Kalen Braley]

Sawgrass is not the course that PD originally designed. I have played it three different times in three different iterations. The first time I played it, it was scruffy and sandy and didn't have as much water. It was really hard.

Tommy,

I compared the course using Historical Viewer where I used a 1983 aerial vs the most recent in 2021.

For the most part, the amount of water on the course isn't much different with the notable exception of 12 which has been entirely reconfigured.  The biggest difference is the large and long formalized bunkers that exist now, vs back then when they appeared to be grassy/sandy/scruffy areas. Its not an exaggeration that they added several acres of bunkers; based on aerials this occurred sometime between 1984 and 1994. (Although in 94 the large viewing mounds were still present)

Here is the breakdown:

Hole 1: Not significantly different
Hole 2: Bunker on right side not present in 83, but it appears the pond is.
Hole 3: Front bunker not there in 83, but not really in play for pro anyways.
Hole 4: Bunker on right side is much larger now vs then.
Hole 5: Water on right side is much larger now, before it appears to have a viewing mound there which is gone. The bunker in front of the water on left side was not there in 83.  2nd large bunker further up right side isn't there in 83.
Hole 6: Large bunker on left side isn't there in 83. Viewing mounds between 6 and 7 are also gone now, as a result the pond is much larger between those two holes but the hole corridors appear basically the same.
Hole 7:  Large bunker on left is two much smaller bunkers in 83
Hole 8: Not significantly different
Hole 9: Fairway bunker on right isn't there in 83.  Fairway is noticeably more narrow today. Large fairway bunker on left side 100 yards out is not there in 83.
Hole 10: Large fairway bunker up left side is not there in 83.
Hole 11: Large bunker at start of fairway not there in 83.  Bunker on left side of hole is smaller now, but far closer to the fairway now vs then.
Hole 12:  Large bunker on right side of fairway is now gone, replaced by large bunker on left side. Large pond added on left side of hole near green and surrounds, from about 100 yards out.  Greenside bunker on right of green is gone now.
Hole 13:  Large top shot bunker short of green wasn't there in 83.
Hole 14:  Pond left of fairway is much bigger now, but playing corridor is basically unchanged.
Hole 15:  Not significantly different
Hole 16:  Fairway layup area at ~100 yards out is significantly smaller now.  The green used to have a wrap-around bunker near lake, but now gone. Bunkering left of green is much smaller now vs then. Large viewing mound between 16 green and 17 tee is gone.
Hole 17:  Basically unchanged
Hole 18:  Small pot bunker in fairway is gone.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sawgrass is not the course that PD originally designed. I have played it three different times in three different iterations. The first time I played it, it was scruffy and sandy and didn't have as much water. It was really hard.

Tommy:


I actually just sent all of my slides of the course from 1981-83 to Jacksonville as they are looking to restore more of the course to the way it was.  I agree it's changed a lot.  But I'm confused by your comment that "it didn't have as much water".  Where have they added water?  It's been a long time since I was back there, but there was water galore from day one.

I was thinking of 12 in particular and four. It felt that some of the ponds are larger.

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm intrigued by the design and penal qualities of Dye's design here. It's similar to the feeling I had when Stone Harbor was first rebuilt in our area. Probably not going  plunk  down $650 to play it but remain tempted . Just wondering if the shots aren't too difficult for plus handicaps. Seems like the tour players manage to make tons of birdies there every year. So any of our best ams on board who have played there please chime in.


I'd say as the great American CC Sawgrass doesn't fit though it's a great question. For me I'm thinking Shinnecock , Merion the Country Club or maybe Winged Foot better fit the bill. I'm sure our Midwest brethren might think Chicago Golf or one of my favorites Prairie Dunes. Love this stuff thanks for starting it off.

[Jeff Evagues]

Stylistically, TPC Sawgrass is certainly going for something different when it comes to bunkering.

Of the 14 non Par 3 holes only two of them, 16 & 18, are devoid of the long/skinny bunkers that extend 100+ yards (and in multiple spots on holes like 5, 7, 10 etc.).  The top shot bunker on 13 doesn't seem that out of place, especially when considering 3 also has a large one the pros would never get in either.

If Sawgrass ever ran up against budgetary concerns it would seem they could eliminate at least half of the bunker square footage course wide with zero impact on The Players tourney.

With the rates they are charging I don't think there will be any budgetary concerns.

[Matthew Rose]

I recall #16 having a skinny strip bunker between the fairway and the water that ran up near the green, and I believe it was taken out because some pros complained about it being unfair. My recollection is that it was so narrow that you couldn't actually play from it while standing in it; you had to stand on the bank.

[Tom_Doak]

I recall #16 having a skinny strip bunker between the fairway and the water that ran up near the green, and I believe it was taken out because some pros complained about it being unfair. My recollection is that it was so narrow that you couldn't actually play from it while standing in it; you had to stand on the bank.

The complaint about that bunker was actually that an approach shot could hit the bank and bounce through the bunker into the water; I remember that happened to Bruce Lietzke in the final round in either '82 or '83.  Anyway, after the 1983 tournament they decided to take it out.  I remember because Pete had me draw the plan for that change.

[Matt Kardash]

So funny how someone could think it is somehow less fair for a ball to go thru sand and into water than just straight into water. Blows my mind.
Tom, the news of you giving your old photos to the PGA Tour for a potential restoration is the best news I have heard in a long time. Watching the TPC now just makes me sad. If only they could bring the old 12th hole back as well.Would you take on the job if it were to be offered? You are perhaps the best placed person for a TPC restoration.

[Michael Felton]

I'm guessing what they thought was unfair was that a ball that landed in the bunker would stay in the bunker, but a shot that landed on the bank by the bunker (i.e. a straighter shot) would go in the water. I have some sympathy with that.


I would also imagine that of all the golf courses on the planet, TPC Sawgrass is the one that should kowtow to the players' demands the most. It is the flagship "Tournament Players Club", so you'd think the will of the tournament players ought to have a decent amount of influence.

[Nigel Islam]

Is TPC Sawgrass the quintessential American golf course design?  Greens and fairways hard against water with timber walls, large simple bunker shapes accented by small pot bunkers, hillocks and mounding guarding fairways, water everywhere. An original design aesthetic using historic features of golf design in a new and different way emphazing shot values, shot balance, angles and intimidation.

Far from it in my book. Tons of water. Ugly sand adjacent to water. Horrible cut patterns. Dopey circular bunkers in the rough. Sawgrass doesn’t do much for me, but then it wasn’t meant for me.

Ciao

That describes a lot more courses in the US than the ones we like to talk about. Lol

[Jason Topp]

I found the course to be surprisingly fun to play when I visited many years ago.


The par fives are about as good as any I have seen and, at least fifteen years ago, yielded some opportunity to get around the green in two excellent shots, or to have an interesting choice for a layup.  The par threes are basically homages to the Raynor templates.  The longer par fours are quite wide off the tee and feature a tee shot that favors a fade/draw and an approach that favors the opposite shot.  Each side has a good short par four (although the alterations to 12 seem a bit gimmicky and contrary to Dye's design philosophy).  Occasionally there is a random bit of whimsy on the course that causes a chuckle.  (I wish the tree still was bent in front of the tee on six). 

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