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Rob Marshall

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How is it done?
« on: January 27, 2024, 10:24:39 PM »
So this is probably going to come off as stupid and I’m looking for someone to give me the detail. Is the “architect” of a project doing the routing then leaving the details to the shapers to create the greens, surrounds, and the lay of the fairways?


I guess what I’m asking is for the architects here to really give a first had account of what they do. How much of the course is really theirs and how much is the guys that work for them?


I’m not trying to take anything away from anyone I would really like to hear from the creator how the process really works.



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2024, 05:17:35 AM »
This is such a difficult / long / nuanced topic that I just deleted my whole response. In summary:


- Traditional architects (those who tender to external contractors) will in theory draw all the detail. But of the thousands of decisions that need to be made on site, the contractor / shaper will have to make many if the architect isn’t present. Plus you can’t draw every micro-crinkle that goes in to making a course work really well.


- Design and build / shape architects will either be building the detail themselves, will be on-site to co-ordinate or will have delegated to one of their own team on much day to day detailing. Tom will tell you he acts as an “editor” on many of his projects now as he trusts his team to build much of the detail in his own vision. He doesn’t draw the detail.


- I often sketch some details for guidance to the shapers working under my direction. But feel I need to be on-site almost every day through construction to ensure we get everything right. I will work particularly closely on finishing critical parts in the field myself. If I was busier, that approach may need to change (hence the criticality of getting a partner / associate or two who has a keen eye and understands what you want in certain circumstances. Tom knew what he was doing building his team these last 25 years!).


Of course, you can play with the smallest detail on free-draining sites. On heavy clay construction projects, pre-planning, quantifying and drawing becomes more and more important.


Note by “detail” I am referring to the small stuff that makes a difference. This is after greens placement and design, strategic concept of features, tee placement, bunker positioning and marking, general strategy, hole widths and playability, specifying of materials. Which all come after master-planning and routing…. Not to mention all the non-design stuff an architect has to deal with.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2024, 06:35:15 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2024, 09:19:41 AM »
I would say it's like what I imagine a jam band to be like.
Someone writes the lyrics, someone the music, someone sets the tone or style, and the instrumentalists all pick their nuances, engineers with production, and everyone can help everyone else and hopefully have fun.
A musician can do all of the above alone too, but not likely as good as having a great drummer or violinist as part of the team.
A symphony with a conductor or Billie Eilish and her brother performing are very different and both can make great music.


Every person on a project makes their own decisions and contributions small and large based on their perspectives and what they see usually with direction from the architect.  Random and natural is more easily achieved with a talented team.


Sometimes I would tell Jacob Cope (shaper at Wolf Point and Cabot Citrus Farms) my specific ideas about shaping a hole or feature, sometimes general ideas giving him more latitude, sometimes just a shrug giving him the most freedom to create.
Jacob is very talented and creative.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2024, 09:23:10 AM »
Rob:


Everyone does it differently, so you shouldn't take my response here for an indication of how others work, but since I think the question is prompted from an interview answer I gave, I should give some more detail.


For me, it depends a bit on the job.  At High Pointe I did the rough shaping for all of the new greens [as I had done for the old ones 35 years ago], but then I directed Brian Slawnik and Blake Conant [on a couple of greens at the end] to get the last 2-3 inches right, and sometimes a bit more than that.  There weren't any greens where they started from scratch, partly because they all thought I should do the greens myself like I did the first time around, and partly because we were spread thin last summer and I didn't have either Brian Schneider or Eric Iverson on site at any point, and Brian Slawnik had to be finishing holes for planting while I was out in front shaping the new ones.


And if people wind up thinking that High Pointe is not quite as good as some of my other recent courses, it's probably because I shaped too much of it!  I'm working with some of the best greens builders who ever lived, and the whole point of them being there is to take advantage of their talent to make the course better.  And I always thought that the greens I sketched out turned out a little wilder than the greens where we just started shaping with a general idea, so it's been years since I tried to draw out more than 1 or 2 greens on a course.  I'm happier to just walk those guys through my idea and let them take a shot at it, or, if I don't have a clear idea, sometimes I'll just turn them loose and see what they come up with.  [Also, I learned long ago to keep my instructions to them pretty simple -- two or three key points, max -- or I might say two things that conflicted and they would get stuck.]


On most projects, there will be some greens where I ask them not to do much work until I'm there to watch, and others where I tell them to go ahead and rough something in -- sometimes with more instruction, and sometimes with less. 


At Riverfront, 30 years ago, for the 5th green my instruction to Eric Iverson was to make it relatively skinny on the diagonal, and try to make it look as different as possible from the left side of the fairway as from the right.  I didn't have to edit his first attempt at all.


At Ballyneal, the 8th green is all Brian Schneider's, with some editing from me to soften it for certain shots, but he built the 7th [in about an hour and a half] with me standing right there telling him exactly what to do.


So, in the end, those guys should get some credit for all the cool stuff I get credit for; but the final edit is mine, and I might have saved them from building a few things over the years that wouldn't have been as well received.




That's for greens and surrounds, which I consider the most important part of our work.  For bunkers, I will usually stick a couple of flags in the ground or point out to them where I want the bunker, and I will come back to edit if something catches my eye wrong, but most of the creative work on the shapes of the bunkers is theirs.  They definitely also add bunkers sometimes on their own, and I sometimes take them out if I don't like them.


For fairways, the whole idea of minimalism is that if I do a good routing, there isn't too much shaping that has to be done in the fairway, but if there is, I will generally direct it.


I did this the same way when I was building one or two courses a year as I do now.  The point is that when you've got really talented people working for you, the way to make your course better [and to keep them around long term] is to give them a chance to contribute to the finished product, instead of just softening a slope where you tell them. 


We're a team, and the best part of that is that all of them respect each other's opinions, so they will put their two cents' worth in on what the other guy is doing, too.




As to how everyone else works, I can't say for sure, but I can say that most of the Golden Age architects we revere were not on site nearly long enough to see every green contour and bunker get built -- they did the framework of the plan, but they left a lot of the detailing to the guys who were on site.  And I firmly believe the best decisions are made by the guy standing right there.  But normally I go back often enough to at least give them the thumbs-up myself.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2024, 12:09:18 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to give such detailed answers. Really interesting stuff.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2024, 05:04:19 PM »
Jacob's stated goal is to get inside the head of the architect he is working with. He has worked with many over his long career.
He is excellent at creating appealing shapes (natural and irregular) to my eye.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2024, 06:38:49 PM »
Jacob's stated goal is to get inside the head of the architect he is working with. He has worked with many over his long career.
He is excellent at creating appealing shapes (natural and irregular) to my eye.
Cheers


Precisely why I’d rather work with people I’ve known for years.  They all know I don’t want them to repeat themselves.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2024, 08:30:38 AM »
Thank you to those in the business for giving us these insights into aspects of your craft. Enlightening stuff.
atb

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2024, 09:15:37 AM »
Ballyneal 8 is a wonderful green. I could have lived without the back bunkers :-).


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2024, 07:34:21 AM »
Ballyneal 8 is a wonderful green. I could have lived without the back bunkers :-).

Ira


I think it would be too easy without something in back.  The top right-hand pin is the easiest on the green because everything feeds back off the slopes.  If it was all like that it would be the easiest par-5 in the world.  And really the dune was too steep to mow the grass at the back, so the bunkers act as a buffer from the native grass.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is it done?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2024, 08:00:34 AM »
I guess what I’m asking is for the architects here to really give a first had account of what they do. How much of the course is really theirs and how much is the guys that work for them?

I'm the a single person business.
I'm a consultant (not a design build) which means I work with a golf course builder.

Let's take the rebuild at Edmonton CC:
All the shaping and the finishing was done by Goodwin Golf.
I'm on site every week to provide approvals as we go.

I rarely work with someone I haven't work with previously, but I did in this instance.

Their creativity was encouraged. And we used three different shapers.

Once I figured out their strengths we used them on different holes intentionally.
I didn't mind a shaper trying something different as long as they didn't get attached to what they built.

Occasionally, I have a very precise vision and I ask to see what I'm looking for.

I had the final say on everything there.
So anything you I've done that you "don't like", is 100% on me.
Anything you like was shaped by Greg, Shawn or Landon
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 08:22:05 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....