News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
"The Audience Comes Last"
« on: January 22, 2024, 10:25:11 AM »

I saw the below video (link) of music producer Rick Rubin make the rounds on social media...and I immediately thought of golf course architecture  ;D


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dLeOa6Oan_w


I think the point he's making is very thought provoking for anyone in a creative field, but wondered how it relates to the building of new golf courses?


Is it even possible to ignore the "audience", client, or customer in today's business?


Or, has there been a cycle? Was Fazio the norm, minimalist designers came in and built courses "for themselves", have become the new norm that consumers expect, and now we're waiting for the next thing?
H.P.S.

Chris Clouser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2024, 11:01:13 AM »
As a writer, unless I'm commissioned to write a specific piece, I write the story I want to write and mold it until it fits into the vision I have for the project.  The consumer only factors into the process at the very end when I'm contemplating how to market a book and what kind of audience it appeals to.  That gets to how you develop the cover, the marketing blurbs, and all of that other stuff that really falls into the authorly/commerce realm instead of the writerly/artist realm in my opinion.
There is a very vocal section of the market who suggest that consumer recognition plays a much larger part of the initial conception of the story.  This group is also closely tied to the concept of you only make it big through traditional publishers.  To me that borders on what Rubin labels as commerce.  And the more dependent on that product you are for your livelihood, the more that probably plays a part into the artistic design.  There is a reason authors like Sarah J Maas and Colleen Hoover are so fervently followed on TikTok and appeal to very similar audiences.  They write their stories to appeal to a particular market.  Perhaps you can argue about their artistic merit, but you can't deny their commercial success. 
My guess, this a constant tug of war that most artists deal with from painters, sculptors, writers, to golf course architects.
As for his comments on movies, the issue there is the producers of the media needed content and they believed for a while all they had to do was produce content, not quality, through their studio machines and the dollars would follow.  That mindset might be changing in Hollywood after the disaster at the box office that was 2023. 

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2024, 02:46:06 PM »
I think this is a good quote, but I don't know how seriously we should take it.

To give credit to Rubin, he has some of the best taste in music of anyone living in this era. I think this is important, deeply important, not to just take the principle on it's face, because we open ourselves up to survivorship bias. Trusting your gut isn't a universalizable principle in highly competitive industries because some people must fail. And it's easy to be fooled by randomness when looking at those with successful careers in these industries, instead of looking at an entire cohort during that period (nobody writes books about people who fail).

While I believe that Rubin is being genuine in this statement, his contribution to the "loudness war" in music shows that the audience was certainly on his mind when producing music. It's extremely hard for me to take him seriously when he participated in one of the biggest tends of dumbing down the music to sell more records.

So that's my cynical two cents. That isn't to say he isn't a fantastic producer. It is also not to say that I don't agree with the principle; I generally do to an extent. I just think that successful folks in highly competitive industries can become unreliable narrators simple due to the fact that being in the right place at the right time is often the linchpin of their success.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 02:50:48 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
GCA Browser Addon v2.0.1: Firefox/Chrome

My stuff:

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2024, 03:22:43 PM »
I just think that successful folks in highly competitive industries can become unreliable narrators simple due to the fact that being in the right place at the right time is often the linchpin of their success.


Interesting...
H.P.S.

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2024, 03:39:07 PM »
The recent film, American Fiction, proposes the opposite... Give the audience what it wants in order to be successful. Here's a trailer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0MbLCpYJPA

Colin Sheehan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2024, 03:52:12 PM »
Very similar to one of my favorite quotes from Sid Vicious, as told by Tony Wilson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg5DR-qx77w

Sid was asked, when making his music, if he thought about the man in the street. And Sid said: "No. I've met the man in the street; he's a c***."


To me, the man in the street is why we can't have blind shots! And stymies. And more risk taking than otherwise should be happening.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 09:27:51 PM by Colin Sheehan »

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2024, 04:33:58 PM »
Very similar to one of my favorite quotes from Sid Vicious, as told by Tony Wilson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg5DR-qx77w

Sid was asked whether, when making his music, if he thought about the man on the street. And Sid said: "No. I've met the man on the street; he's a c***."


To me, the man in the street is why we can't have blind shots! And stymies. And more risk taking than otherwise should be happening.




I have a lot of time for this perspective. I can't say I'm 100% with it, but it's certainly over 50.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2024, 04:36:10 PM »
Pat:


Nice topic.  Blake Conant sent me a link a few months ago to his interview on 60 Minutes . . . because Blake thought my approach with my associates was a lot like Rubin's.


In general, I think the approach Rubin describes is spot on.  On the best projects we've done, the crew are all there trying to do their best work because they love the project and love each other.  It's not really for the client, or for me; it's for them.  [And ultimately it's for a broad group of golfers, so they trust me to edit their work appropriately.]


That is not how most golf courses are built today.  The clients want to be very involved in the story . . . I can't believe how much some worry what might be said about their course, and try to control the narrative.  And most architects want to make a top 100 list, or want to go viral on social media, or both.  Such commercial concerns clash with the pure love of what you are doing and warp it.  I think architects understand that more than clients do, but there are only a few architects who think of this work as art [or a higher calling*] instead of business.


Does any painter start their work thinking of how much they're going to sell it for?  Does any great musician start off every day trying to write "a hit" ?  Not any of the ones I've spoken to, anyway.  They more often say that their most successful works kind of snuck up on them, either in a moment of pure inspiration, or with a much broader acceptance from the public than they expected.  [Golf architecture is a little easier, because you have a piece of land for inspiration, and that provides a head start for the success of the course.]


This is also one reason I kick back at Mark Fine every time he tries to take us down the road of discussing "architectural intent".  A golf course is a medium for the game . . . we don't control how future golfers will play our holes, any more than an artist controls what people will think about when they look at his work.  [If Donald Ross wanted a certain hole to be approached with a 4-iron, he must be disappointed now, but the hole is probably still very good.]  Instead, the greatest successes occur when different people and different groups can each find their own thing to enjoy in the work.


No doubt Matt will come back here and say I'm an unreliable narrator because I was in the right place at the right time.  True, that . . . although I may have had something to do with creating my own place at the table.




* Probably my most important takeaway from spending time with Pete Dye and Ben Crenshaw and spending my year overseas was that my first responsibility was to the game of golf.  That's why they spent time with me.

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2024, 05:12:50 PM »
Tom,


Really interesting post.  This begs a question in my mind - If you had the money/time/resources and were going to design a course just for yourself to play for the rest of your days, would it be much different from what you've already built?  I agree with your point that the best art comes from people creating what they want to see and I think that's why you see so much new stuff come from younger people in most creative fields.

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2024, 05:31:04 PM »
No doubt Matt will come back here and say I'm an unreliable narrator because I was in the right place at the right time.  True, that . . . although I may have had something to do with creating my own place at the table.

Ha, well, fair enough:

Tom Brady doesn't get a chance to win a Superbowl without Drew Bledsoe getting a season ending injury, but he still has to win the Superbowl.

David McLay-Kidd doesn't become one of the most sought after architects in the world without Mike Keiser plucking him from obscurity, but he still has build a world class golf course.

Rick Rubin doesn't found the premier hip hop label without growing up around NYC at the birth of hip hop, but he still had to produce exceptional records.

My point isn't to say that these aren't talented individuals... they obviously are. It also isn't to say that they didn't have a tenacity, ambition, and made good decisions in the face of naysayers. It's only to say that, in an industry where success must be limited (you just can't have more successful NFL quarterbacks than exist NFL teams), and especially in industries where success is zero-sum, and often driven by gate-keepers, then it's difficult for me to accept a "follow your heart" narrative without a healthy dose of "and also be extremely talented, and be extremely lucky." Music and literature world are littered with extremely talented failures and manufactured successes.

With my background in philosophy, whenever I can recommend a Nassim Taleb book I will, and Fooled by Randomness is an exceptional book that is exactly about this topic.

I hope this isn't seen as disparaging. It's not meant to be. I just promised myself long ago, that when I write about these topics, I won't pull my punches, exactly because I think the values put forward here by Rubin are worthwhile.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 08:21:20 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
GCA Browser Addon v2.0.1: Firefox/Chrome

My stuff:

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2024, 06:25:17 AM »
“Build it and they will come”.
Publicise it widely including via social media and they will flock to it and pay through the nose to do so.
:)

Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2024, 08:37:07 AM »

Really interesting post.  This begs a question in my mind - If you had the money/time/resources and were going to design a course just for yourself to play for the rest of your days, would it be much different from what you've already built?  I agree with your point that the best art comes from people creating what they want to see and I think that's why you see so much new stuff come from younger people in most creative fields.


Joe:


Much of my design work is driven by the site and what it offers, and I doubt I would route a golf course much differently if I was just thinking about it for myself.  I'm working on a project right now where Colin Sheehan is involved [in Texas] and I was encouraged to consider putting more blind shots into the routing, but it really didn't change my process much; I still believe that blindness is best done in moderation.


But, I think some of the features I built and some of the greens I built would be quite different.


The first time around at High Pointe, the client provided almost no input, and I built what I wanted.  This time around, one of the first things the new client said was that he wanted the greens to be 12 on the Stimpmeter every day . . . and that right there required me to do things differently than I would do on my own.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2024, 08:52:23 AM »

Really interesting post.  This begs a question in my mind - If you had the money/time/resources and were going to design a course just for yourself to play for the rest of your days, would it be much different from what you've already built?  I agree with your point that the best art comes from people creating what they want to see and I think that's why you see so much new stuff come from younger people in most creative fields.

The first time around at High Pointe, the client provided almost no input, and I built what I wanted.  This time around, one of the first things the new client said was that he wanted the greens to be 12 on the Stimpmeter every day . . . and that right there required me to do things differently than I would do on my own.


Tom-Do you find yourself pushing back at all on the client stimp request? It would seem the effect of such a request would equate to a more moderate set of greens than you might normally build.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2024, 08:53:35 AM »
No doubt Matt will come back here and say I'm an unreliable narrator because I was in the right place at the right time.  True, that . . . although I may have had something to do with creating my own place at the table.

Ha, well, fair enough:

Tom Brady doesn't get a chance to win a Superbowl without Drew Bledsoe getting a season ending injury, but he still has to win the Superbowl.

David McLay-Kidd doesn't become one of the most sought after architects in the world without Mike Keiser plucking him from obscurity, but he still has build a world class golf course.

Rick Rubin doesn't found the premier hip hop label without growing up around NYC at the birth of hip hop, but he still had to produce exceptional records.

My point isn't to say that these aren't talented individuals... they obviously are. It also isn't to say that they didn't have a tenacity, ambition, and made good decisions in the face of naysayers. It's only to say that, in an industry where success must be limited (you just can't have more successful NFL quarterbacks than exist NFL teams), and especially in industries where success is zero-sum, and often driven by gate-keepers, then it's difficult for me to accept a "follow your heart" narrative without a healthy dose of "and also be extremely talented, and be extremely lucky." Music and literature world are littered with extremely talented failures and manufactured successes.

With my background in philosophy, whenever I can recommend a Nassim Taleb book I will, and Fooled by Randomness is an exceptional book that is exactly about this topic.





But where the hell did Rick Rubin say you didn't also have to be extremely talented and be extremely lucky?  That's kind of a universal truth.  But if you are lucky enough to get there and you fritter it all away on worrying what the audience will think, you've blown your chance.


Likewise, Rubin says nothing about the fact that there are many "manufactured successes" as you say, because he is not preaching commercial success, he is advocating for creativity.  It's entirely possible to be successful in a field like golf course architecture without having a creative bone in your body -- just look up who won all those GOLF DIGEST Best New awards in the 1980s and 1990s  :D  -- but they didn't leave a legacy for my generation to follow.  [Actually, credit where credit is due:  Rees Jones did create a lot of opportunities for young architects to restore classic courses.]


You brought up David Kidd and I think he's a perfect example of what Rubin is talking about.  Mike Keiser liked him for Bandon Dunes because David was young and passionate and wanted to show Americans what real links golf was all about.  But on his next few projects he veered away from that mission, and started trying to prove he was the best architect in the world, and those didn't go so well.  Now he's got a different philosophy and he is back to preaching that philosophy in his work.


P.S.  I've never read Fooled by Randomness, but I am a big fan of Taleb's two subsequent books, I have learned a lot from them.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2024, 08:58:55 AM »

Tom-Do you find yourself pushing back at all on the client stimp request? It would seem the effect of such a request would equate to a more moderate set of greens than you might normally build.


Tim:


If you want to push back against the client's first priorities, you should just turn down the job.  I learned the first time around that I don't have any control over what happens to the course once I'm done, so if a client says he wants fast greens, he is by God going to have them, even if it's not appropriate for what's built.  Building severe greens anyway would be a form of malpractice.


The reality is that a lot of clients nowadays want the greens at 12, and it means that I can't build the kind of greens I love for those clients.  It's their loss.  But to Joe's question, if I was doing it for myself, you'd still get to see some of those greens.


Shane Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2024, 09:04:53 AM »
Pat - excellent way to back end into golf course architecture.  Rick Rubin grew up in Lido Beach, NY!  :)


The Lido aside, very interesting topic. 




Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2024, 11:50:29 AM »
If you misjudge the audience for a piece of music, it will still be around forever. If you misjudge the audience for a golf course, it might not last too long.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2024, 01:08:02 PM »
If you misjudge the audience for a piece of music, it will still be around forever. If you misjudge the audience for a golf course, it might not last too long.


There's lots of pieces of music in someone's bottom drawer which is not hurting anyone's ears (and may one day be discovered).
There's lots of buildings which are eysores and golf courses where I get no pleasure.
"Might" doesn't get you off the hook on this one. 
Something that's built has to be unbuilt.
Something thats written has to find an audience.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 02:48:38 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2024, 02:08:06 PM »
Is it even possible to ignore the "audience", client, or customer in today's business?
I can't help but think about the distinction of Art vs Design in this context. While Art has patrons, has those who support the artist and their work, what those patrons want more than anything from the artist is a true expression of the Artist vision. Design CAN work that way, but more often than not, what the client wants from the designer is the designers expression of the Clients vision.

If you were a client who commissioned an architect to build you a house, you have hired a specialist to solve a problem for you. Now there are quite a few specialist who could all solve the problem, but you picked that one because they have demonstrated to you a unique/special/inviting way of solving problems that you find captivating and desirable. Even if you can not perfectly articulate all facets of the problem you're wanting them to solve, you expect them to work with you to develop a clear understanding and present not only a successful, but also unique/special/inviting solution to the problem.

The Architects job is to consider the audience (client) first in everything they're doing. If the designer goes rogue and builds what they want, they might solve the clients problem, but good chance they would not have been as successful to meeting all the clients needs.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2024, 02:21:55 PM »
Is it even possible to ignore the "audience", client, or customer in today's business?
I can't help but think about the distinction of Art vs Design in this context. While Art has patrons, has those who support the artist and their work, what those patrons want more than anything from the artist is a true expression of the Artist vision. Design CAN work that way, but more often than not, what the client wants from the designer is the designers expression of the Clients vision.

If you were a client who commissioned an architect to build you a house, you have hired a specialist to solve a problem for you. Now there are quite a few specialist who could all solve the problem, but you picked that one because they have demonstrated to you a unique/special/inviting way of solving problems that you find captivating and desirable. Even if you can not perfectly articulate all facets of the problem you're wanting them to solve, you expect them to work with you to develop a clear understanding and present not only a successful, but also unique/special/inviting solution to the problem.

The Architects job is to consider the audience (client) first in everything they're doing. If the designer goes rogue and builds what they want, they might solve the clients problem, but good chance they would not have been as successful to meeting all the clients needs.


Developing a golf course is not quite the same thing as commissioning a house for yourself.  The house is obviously personal, but the golf course is ultimately for a bunch of golfers, not just the client.  If I met a potential client and his vision for the course was too specific, I would most likely not take that job.


What if the client's goal is to build a "top 50" course, as I've heard once or twice? At that point, it doesn't matter so much what THEY think it will take as what I think it will take.  The work is not an expression of THEM.  They could very well get in their own way because they want to fit in a certain type of hole in a certain place.


My deal with Ric Kayne was that I would get a substantial bonus if I met his top 50 objective.  After we shook hands on that, I realized and said to him that meant if he wanted me to change something, he would have to pay me the bonus, or he might prevent the course from getting such a lofty ranking!  In the end, he let me run mostly free, and the one time he asked for a change, we did it because I agreed with him after some consideration.


Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2024, 02:53:40 PM »
What if the client's goal is to build a "top 50" course, as I've heard once or twice? At that point, it doesn't matter so much what THEY think it will take as what I think it will take.  The work is not an expression of THEM.  They could very well get in their own way because they want to fit in a certain type of hole in a certain place.
I would imagine if a perspective client told you their goal for the project was to build a "top 50" course, that would be a trigger for a long conversation about the client's understanding of what characteristics made up a course of that level, what factors were required to receive such distinction, and what ownership of that course would mean to them. The problem you were brought in to solve is still on the table, but quite a bit of qualification stands in the way between that problem and the effective solution.

Your anecdote about Mr. Kayne echos this. They hired you because they they believed your way of solving their problem would be successful. To fulfill the projects goals you had to consider client's needs in a way to ensure a hierarchy of success. The bonus payout afforded you the ability to keep the clients ultimate expression/desire in focus while allowing you to properly execute the end solution.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2024, 08:11:06 PM »
For golf architects to say they don't care about their audience is hard for me to understand because so much about the golfer's experience is already baked into what golf design is. If Tom adjusts his greens to meet an owner's desire to keep those greens fast, isn't he doing so with the audience's ability to play his greens in mind?
Golf courses have to function, golfers need to be able to circulate, have short walks from greens to tees, not trudge uphill to every tee. These things we do as part of creating a golf course are all because we have the golfer in mind. Golf courses are routed with the golfer in mind, even when there is an anomaly like a walk back or a crossover hole, it's always done with how golfers will get around and through it all.


Other forms of art are nowhere as interactive with the audience like golf.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2024, 08:21:00 PM »
I have become famlliar with a concept known as upstream marketing. While some extremely creative and lucky and tuned in artist or biz create a piece/product and leads people to it upstram marketing is for those who decide to explore what THEIR market wants and create a product to satisfy that demand. Does that exclude immutable parameters and standards? Not necessarily so if the designer figures out how to blend current payoffs and eternal principles which i submit can be done( seee my post on Crossroads GC)I personally think Top Golf is here to stay but do we want the prepondrance of new golfers to arrive on a mongrel golf experience and stay there? No/ It is akin to starting with Boone's Farm and evolving to Cabernet. There is a place for both and boorah the prodect that can straddle that divide and serves both participants. It is the contemporary "WAY"
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2024, 08:14:34 AM »
For golf architects to say they don't care about their audience is hard for me to understand because so much about the golfer's experience is already baked into what golf design is. If Tom adjusts his greens to meet an owner's desire to keep those greens fast, isn't he doing so with the audience's ability to play his greens in mind?

Other forms of art are nowhere as interactive with the audience like golf.


Don:


I'm not saying we don't think about golf!  And I'm not advocating for non-golfers to design golf courses.  I'm sure their work would be different, but I doubt it would be very fun to play.   


But I am a golfer.  Most architects are.  Everything we do is based on the golf experience we want to deliver . . . but we can do that without worrying about what other golfers or raters will think, if we trust our own instincts.


I think the reason my courses have been successful in rankings is not because I think about those guys, but because I have the background of a rater myself, and my taste favors the sorts of things those guys like.  If your tastes were different, I don't think you could cater to theirs as easily, just by trying to think about what they want.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Audience Comes Last"
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2024, 11:58:00 AM »
There are a few old sayings that come to mind:


Design is different from art, in that it must be attractive and also functional, and


The difference between art and design is like masturbation and sex.  In masturbation, do what pleases you, but in design, you need to think of the other partner.  :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back