News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Vernacular golf course architecture
« on: January 15, 2024, 12:47:03 PM »
This week I will again be driving down to Monterey to spend a surprisingly inexpensive overnight with some friends. I'll be playing the Poppy Hills renovation, and (of course) Pacific Grove. I'm sure most folks here are familiar with Pacific Grove, but I'm having a difficult time trying express why I like it so much. It's an imperfect course, but it has a charm that I don't see in many of the "the best courses" I've played.

In Garrett Morrison's recent Club TFE write up on the course, he made a comment on this subject that fascinated me:

Quote
PG’s modesty—”vernacular architecture” as opposed to “high-style architecture,” I guess—is central to its character.

This seems like an appropriate term for a style of course: simple, accessible, utilitarian, unassuming, yet still interesting and remarkable. The only other place I've felt this described is when reading Jim Hartsell write about unassuming places in out-of-the-way Scotland like Dunaverty or Gairloch. I even wonder if the old course remains so interesting because it grew and changed through these principles... but I might be wrong there.

Is there a place for a type of vernacular architecture in studying GCA? Does anyone have any resources on other courses that fit in this model? I still don't feel like I really understand why I like Pacific Grove so much, but maybe someone here has thought about it longer than I have.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 03:28:35 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2024, 02:07:13 PM »
Here? Nah, we are too interested in studying the best of design, or at least the highly ranked, in a superficial way.......


Elsewhere?  Of course!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2024, 03:11:38 PM »
Here? Nah, we are too interested in studying the best of design, or at least the highly ranked, in a superficial way.......


Elsewhere?  Of course!


Speak for yourself.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2024, 03:37:57 PM »
If someone has played both Pacific Grove and Painswick, is there any sense in which those two courses could both be examples of this and share a common "feel" so to speak?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2024, 06:52:44 PM »
MOST great golf courses [or at least the old ones] are a product of vernacular architecture . . . they fit into their landscape exceptionally well.


It is also possible to do that without having a bunch of great holes.


I think what you are saying is that you'd rather have the course fit into the vernacular, even if it doesn't have a bunch of great holes, than the converse.  But most modern developers think, why not both?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2024, 09:29:18 PM »
In western New York:

Scott Witter built a course in Cowlesville called Ironwood. Absolutely vernacular architecture. He also added the third nine to Deerwood in North Tonawanda. AVA.

Cazenovia Park and South Park (both nine hole courses) within Buffalo city limits. AVA.

In contrast:

Hurdzan-Fry (neither of them, but one of their employees) firm built Diamond Hawk in Cheektowaga. AVA with a dash of spiced rum. Sh!t piece of property that had been equal parts railroad land and town dumping ground. Completely repurposed, and given a bit of pizzaazz, but still AVA.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2024, 04:34:33 AM »
A couple of important aspects of such courses are I suggest lack of funds and the need to use simple tools including man or horse powered ones in the construction process.
As a kid or even as an adult ever put together a couple of holes in a backyard or a field with used soup cans, some bamboo poles and some old rags? Or luxury upon luxury, a spade and a rake!
Golf’s essentially a simple stick, ball, hole game. It’s all the other malarkey that surrounds it that makes it complex and costly.
Atb

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2024, 08:45:50 AM »
At Pacific Grove, I was surprised how much I enjoyed the inland nine holes that were designed by H. Chandler Egan.   I'm not sure if the course predated the surrounding real-estate or if they just both grew up in tandem but even with the funky changed routing that now has a bunch of par threes up near the clubhouse the holes really just seemed fit for the purpose and used the land in a nice variety of ways.   The original clubhouse was located at the far inland end, starting and ending with par fives.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2024, 08:48:32 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2024, 10:41:50 AM »
I’ve just returned home from attending the funeral of one of my dear old college lecturers. Meeting up with some fellow students, we reminisced hugely over how he was so instrumental in how we developed our understanding of design. He was a very strong proponent of utilising the vernacular in architecture; employing local materials, the expertise of local craftspeople, using local construction techniques, a minimal approach to importation…
Where I’m going here is, doesn’t that sound a bit like minimalism? And certainly, sounds a lot to me, of, nowadays what we’d call SUSTAINABILITY.
Fond memories,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2024, 10:48:35 AM »
Here? Nah, we are too interested in studying the best of design, or at least the highly ranked, in a superficial way.......


Elsewhere?  Of course!


Speak for yourself.


Ciao


The patron saint of the topic(Sean A)
A big word such as "vernacular" (seems?)wrong to describe the courses and value experiences Sean champions.
I would argue this website is the gold standard for finding such venues, and the people that populate such places only add to the experiences.



« Last Edit: January 16, 2024, 09:58:58 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2024, 11:02:30 AM »

Golf’s essentially a simple stick, ball, hole game. It’s all the other malarkey that surrounds it that makes it complex and costly.
Atb


This.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2024, 11:46:07 AM »
essentially a simple stick, ball, hole game. It’s all the other malarkey that surrounds it that makes it complex and costly.
Atb


This.

(Channeling JK): Sounds like conception.

Surprised by Thomas' statement and Jeff's affirmation...especially on a forum such as this. Just silly.

Both of you are cordially invited to rebut me at my Wiffle Ball Stadium, "designed" 1983.

Jeff, I agree. I've been a fan of Sean A's since I joined this place.
I doubt such assignations inform his course assesments.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2024, 02:25:47 PM »
Here? Nah, we are too interested in studying the best of design, or at least the highly ranked, in a superficial way.......


Elsewhere?  Of course!


Speak for yourself.


Ciao


The patron saint of the topic(Sean A)
A big word such as "vernacular" is just wrong to describe the courses and value experiences Sean champions.
I would argue this website is the gold standard for such venues, and the people that populate such places only add to the experiences.
Sean can speak for himself, but I think the word is perfect.  Following the link in Matt's original post gets you this:
"Vernacular architecture usually serves immediate, local needs, is constrained by the materials available in its particular region, and reflects local traditions and cultural practices. The study of vernacular architecture does not examine formally schooled architects, but instead that of the design skills and tradition of local builders, who were rarely given any attribution for the work. More recently, vernacular architecture has been examined by designers and the building industry in an effort to be more energy conscious with contemporary design and construction—part of a broader interest in sustainable design."

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2024, 10:00:42 PM »
Here? Nah, we are too interested in studying the best of design, or at least the highly ranked, in a superficial way.......


Elsewhere?  Of course!


Speak for yourself.


Ciao


The patron saint of the topic(Sean A)
A big word such as "vernacular" is just wrong to describe the courses and value experiences Sean champions.
I would argue this website is the gold standard for such venues, and the people that populate such places only add to the experiences.
Sean can speak for himself, but I think the word is perfect.  Following the link in Matt's original post gets you this:
"Vernacular architecture usually serves immediate, local needs, is constrained by the materials available in its particular region, and reflects local traditions and cultural practices. The study of vernacular architecture does not examine formally schooled architects, but instead that of the design skills and tradition of local builders, who were rarely given any attribution for the work. More recently, vernacular architecture has been examined by designers and the building industry in an effort to be more energy conscious with contemporary design and construction—part of a broader interest in sustainable design."


LOL post edited.
Agreed, a good word as you have defined it.
Learned something new today, even if I can't spell it.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2024, 11:25:28 PM »

This seems like an appropriate term for a style of course: simple, accessible, utilitarian, unassuming, yet still interesting and remarkable.


Isn't the above description a good muni in the US?


When I went to the wikipedia link for vernacular architecture I like how they say the boundaries aren't really clear.


The first picture of the Indonesian building doesn't strike me as simple, accessible (unless you live in Indonesia), utilitarian or unassuming.  Most of the pictures seem to show buildings characteristic of a particular region.  So, something like a links course on links land, a heathland course on heath, parkland on parkland.  The opposite would be something lush in the desert like Shadow Creek (but I guess it does fit the vernacular of Vegas).


The wikipedia also talks about skyscrapers in NYC being high style but fitting a vernacular as they are quite common in NYC, kind of like a private club in the Hamptons.


I feel like maybe a comparison of Folk Art vs High Art is more appropriate?

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2024, 02:14:04 AM »
The term was used loosely by Garrett as he said “I guess.” I just thought it was a good metaphor. Perhaps “folk art” or “arts and crafts” is somehow technically better... lord know the architects were professionals, even if working in a bygone eras on limited budgets.

The exchange was about the imperfections in the course, and how, while I do think the 9th and 18th could be improved, I don’t think I’d want to change anything else.

Having thought about it all day, I’ve refined some of what I think I like a bit better. Take MCirba‘s example, the course starts as par 3, par 3. Absolutely bizarre, but very obvious when you learn the clubhouse was moved when the back 9 was added, and one hole was shortened leading to this weird start. A practical solution was used instead of try to “make it correct.”

There are more, almost deliberate, unpretentious aspects to the place. Many of the holes have subtly, but others simply ask the player to deal with a clear obstacle. All while being on one of the better sites for golf in the state. I’m honestly shocked they never hired someone to mess everything up and “make it better.”

It’s like a beautiful old barn you’d want to have a wedding in. The site is a practical, effective, and beautiful setting for golf. Even if imperfect, much of its draw I think comes from a kind of quaintness that’s hard to find elsewhere.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2024, 02:30:54 AM by Matt Schoolfield »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2024, 04:32:02 AM »
The only other place I've felt this described is when reading Jim Hartsell write about unassuming places in out-of-the-way Scotland like Dunaverty or Gairloch. I even wonder if the old course remains so interesting because it grew and changed through these principles... but I might be wrong there.
I have played and enjoyed Pacific Grove.  And I understand what you are getting at.  But it is far less rare in the UK than choosing examples such as Dunaverty might suggest.  Of the three clubs I belong to, I'd suggest that both Elie and Crail Balcomie have this same character and that there would be dozens of other, usually older, courses in the UK that are equally "vernacular".  It's how golf used to be.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2024, 05:58:57 AM »
essentially a simple stick, ball, hole game. It’s all the other malarkey that surrounds it that makes it complex and costly.
Atb
This.
(Channeling JK): Sounds like conception.
Surprised by Thomas' statement and Jeff's affirmation...especially on a forum such as this. Just silly.
Both of you are cordially invited to rebut me at my Wiffle Ball Stadium, "designed" 1983.
Jeff, I agree. I've been a fan of Sean A's since I joined this place.
I doubt such assignations inform his course assesments.




“A couple of important aspects of such courses are I suggest lack of funds and the need to use simple tools including man or horse powered ones in the construction process.As a kid or even as an adult ever put together a couple of holes in a backyard or a field with used soup cans, some bamboo poles and some old rags? Or luxury upon luxury, a spade and a rake!Golf’s essentially a simple stick, ball, hole game. It’s all the other malarkey that surrounds it that makes it complex and costly.Atb”


The perils of not looking at earlier posts in full?


Can’t respond much more, haven’t the time just now. Off soon to visit a Scottish city of learning and while wearing a red jacket stroll with like minded mates along some sandy low lying scrub land hitting a small leather pouch filled with feathers with a stick into a scraping in the ground made by the heel of someone’s boot.


Atb

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2024, 06:00:33 AM »
The only other place I've felt this described is when reading Jim Hartsell write about unassuming places in out-of-the-way Scotland like Dunaverty or Gairloch. I even wonder if the old course remains so interesting because it grew and changed through these principles... but I might be wrong there.
I have played and enjoyed Pacific Grove.  And I understand what you are getting at.  But it is far less rare in the UK than choosing examples such as Dunaverty might suggest.  Of the three clubs I belong to, I'd suggest that both Elie and Crail Balcomie have this same character and that there would be dozens of other, usually older, courses in the UK that are equally "vernacular".  It's how golf used to be.


I think hundreds actually. It's just that most of them are low-key courses frequented only by locals, and not special enough to attract attention from the wider world.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2024, 11:31:27 AM »
essentially a simple stick, ball, hole game. It’s all the other malarkey that surrounds it that makes it complex and costly.
Atb
This.
(Channeling JK): Sounds like conception.
Surprised by Thomas' statement and Jeff's affirmation...especially on a forum such as this. Just silly.
Both of you are cordially invited to rebut me at my Wiffle Ball Stadium, "designed" 1983.
Jeff, I agree. I've been a fan of Sean A's since I joined this place.
I doubt such assignations inform his course assesments.
The perils of not looking at earlier posts in full?
Nope.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2024, 12:22:02 PM »
I think another comparison here could be some of the old time stadiums they built, for example Fenway Park.

As I understand it, they worked with the limitations they had in lot size, location, and created a cozy/intimate environment with unique features like the left field fence, short porch down the right field line, and very deep center with little nooks and crannies.  Contrast that with the more modern stadiums of the 60s and 70s where everything was exactly symmetrical in circular stadiums, located in wide open spaces with few constraints. Perhaps more functional, but completely lacking of character or charm.

Where would you rather catch a game?

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2024, 02:18:30 PM »
I like this topic, as it has me really thinking about this.


My first thought with "vernacular" and golf was the Australian Sandbelt.  Then after reading a little bit of the wikipedia article, I thought maybe it's too "designed" and only places like the UK links or Some Guy's Backyard really fit.  But then reading more in that same article, I think it really does fit.  Those sharp edge bunkers, those firm conditions, and the design decisions made from them, are all highly influenced by local materials--the fine and compacted sand in this case.  Also, the incorporation and blending of the surrounding native scrubby plant textures.


Following along those lines, you could argue for the vernacular of many of the early Golden Age courses of the Northeast US and their use of chocolate drop mounds and berms to bury stones as well as push-up greens to keep the heavier native soil from getting too saturated. Also, more grass-faced bunkers to avoid dealing with washouts from summer storms.


The region I struggle with a little more is California and the heavy influence of MacKenzie and Billy Bell/George Thomas's flashy sand bunkering.  Even that movement though could be traced to a response of natural conditions--Cypress Point and its dunes and sandy soil, obviously, and the Thomas LA courses, which, while not necessarily all that sandy, were on properties laden with exposed soil from washes both high and low, lending themselves to bunkering that could match up to that. Also, the bigger topography and lack of trees of many courses in CA lends itself visually to bigger, flashier bunkering that better fits the scale of the land. But, in some of my general research and understanding of golf's stylistic evolution here, I'd contend that many places have *followed* the style of the big courses vs. responded to natural conditions present. Annandale, which employed much more of a formal/grass-faced bunkering style to start and converted to a Bell flash style not long after, could be an example of that. But even then, you could make an argument about what is more "vernacular." Perhaps the original style is more "vernacular" in its utilization of (what I am assuming is) a heavier soil, but could you argue the Bell style is more "vernacular" because it better visually responds to the neighboring hills and barrancas running through the property?  It's fun to think and argue about.


In the end, as golf is a naturally borne game and one that exists outside in the elements, there is almost always going to be some level of "vernacular" to the design.  The degree of which it exists probably will tell you something about the experience you can expect when playing it.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2024, 02:56:20 PM »
Sounds like a farmer who puts a golf course on his land is the definition of vernacular. In our Delaware Valley there are also amateur owners who create courses which could qualify. Once a professional architect is involved you probably move out of the vernacular.
AKA Mayday

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2024, 02:35:19 AM »
I just returned to San Francisco tonight. On the drive home I decided to stop by Casserly Par 3 Golf Course near Watsonville. It's a real bucolic spot, and definitely fits the hard version of vernacular architecture... very obvious converted farmland. 





Here, however, as cute as the place is, the design is genuinely terrible. It has none of the value-in-imperfection that a place like Pacific Grove.

Spring Hills GC is a very similar, full course is down the road. While they have an amazingly beautiful clubhouse (formerly the ranch house from when it was a ranch), I feel little for this course even in its unique, almost hand-made presentation.

I also think it's very apropos that I had the contrast of Poppy Hills to reflect on while thinking about this. The sea of bunkering that lined that course, most of which was effectively out-of-play pseudo waste areas, stood in stark contrast to the wild waste areas on the back nine at Pacific Grove. Whether or not, or how, Pacific Grove fits into a kind of vernacular architecture, I do feel like I have a better understanding of why I like it, and I'm sure Jack Neville had that in mind when designing it.

Poppy Hills:





Pacific Grove (2022)


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vernacular golf course architecture
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2024, 11:40:56 AM »
I’ve just returned home from attending the funeral of one of my dear old college lecturers. Meeting up with some fellow students, we reminisced hugely over how he was so instrumental in how we developed our understanding of design. He was a very strong proponent of utilizing the vernacular in architecture; employing local materials, the expertise of local craftspeople, using local construction techniques, a minimal approach to importation…
Where I’m going here is, doesn’t that sound a bit like minimalism? And certainly, sounds a lot to me, of, nowadays what we’d call SUSTAINABILITY.
Fond memories,
F.


This is the most appropriate definition of vernacular architecture.  In golf, this probably started declining when RTJ sold the signature architect style anywhere in the world.  In the most remote places, the local land and construction techniques still find a way to show through more than in most cases.


I get the impression that "smaller scale" is driving most of the opinions here, which is okay.  As mentioned, local courses must do more with less and that does give them an old-fashioned, more natural look, in many cases.


As Marty points out, it may be outside influences that drive a trend toward simpler courses.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach