[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I think you are confusing low budget courses with minimalist courses.

Ballyneal is a minimalist course that you couldn't stop raving about.

Your favorite Spokane area quirky course is a low budget course.

 

Ha ha,


Well I did say most.  Ballyneal certainly scores very high in my book and I'm not sure if any other course I've played surpasses it in the fun-factor category.  I think my statement still holds that most minimalist courses are uninteresting.


As for that aforementioned Spokane course, sadly it closed a number of years ago, which is a shame.  It had some unique holes and boat loads of quirk, in addition to one par 4 which was nothing short of superb.

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

It seems to me that Wine Valley and Sagebrush were built lay of the land, i.e., minimalist.

Also seems to me that you have raved about them. Come to think of it, count Rock Creek CC in there too.

Are you sure you aren't enthralled with minimalism?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

It seems to me that Wine Valley and Sagebrush were built lay of the land, i.e., minimalist.

Also seems to me that you have raved about them. Come to think of it, count Rock Creek CC in there too.

Are you sure you aren't enthralled with minimalism?

Wine Valley I could see, but I suspect there was a large amount of material(s) moved at the other two to get them playable.

However, my opinion is based in the aggregate of all the tens of thousands of courses worldwide.  Even among the 125 or so I've played for every interesting one done in this style there are at least 5 or 6 others that were dull.

They key to minimalism seems to be as stated, do you have an interesting/compelling site to start with.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kalen,

It seems to me that Wine Valley and Sagebrush were built lay of the land, i.e., minimalist.

Also seems to me that you have raved about them. Come to think of it, count Rock Creek CC in there too.

Are you sure you aren't enthralled with minimalism?

Wine Valley I could see, but I suspect there was a large amount of material(s) moved at the other two to get them playable.

However, my opinion is based in the aggregate of all the tens of thousands of courses worldwide.  Even among the 125 or so I've played for every interesting one done in this style there are at least 5 or 6 others that were dull.

They key to minimalism seems to be as stated, do you have an interesting/compelling site to start with.

Uninspired design on a non-compelling site is going to result in an average to poor golf course regardless.


You can do pretty good minimalism on poor land with a low(ish) budget if you have interesting green designs, playful bunker positioning and an eye for mixed vegetation and mowing lines. Might not be a world beater but it’ll be better than average.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen,

It seems to me that Wine Valley and Sagebrush were built lay of the land, i.e., minimalist.

Also seems to me that you have raved about them. Come to think of it, count Rock Creek CC in there too.

Are you sure you aren't enthralled with minimalism?

Wine Valley I could see, but I suspect there was a large amount of material(s) moved at the other two to get them playable.

I don't know where you think we moved much dirt at Rock Creek, but there was very little earthmoving or shaping in any of those fairways.  We did bury a bunch of rocks at the base of the hill on #10 to make the downslope less severe . . . had to lose them all somewhere.  And Eric did do some very clever cut and fill work in the landing area on #14, to make sure you could see through the slot at the end from a short tee shot.  But that's all I can remember that we did.

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

 

Ya, I know, hockey players are the best athletes.   

[Mike Hendren]

I’m not convinced a site must be compelling  so long as the greens are. 

[Thomas Dai]

Is there a place for constructing what I’ll call yee olde day minimalism? No smooth finishing, no elaborate polishing, no frills instead plenty of basic rustic and unsophisticated features that are rough and ragged around the edges with an obvious to the eye look of how the construction work was done?
Not sure I’m explaining this as well as I could but hopefully folks will get the drift. Kind of an earlier, in fact much, much earlier, generation of minimalism.

Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Is there a place for constructing what I’ll call yee olde day minimalism? No smooth finishing, no elaborate polishing, no frills instead plenty of basic rustic and unsophisticated features that are rough and ragged around the edges with an obvious to the eye look of how the construction work was done?
Not sure I’m explaining this as well as I could but hopefully folks will get the drift. Kind of an earlier, in fact much, much earlier, generation of minimalism.

Atb

Eddie Hackett was the closest modern version of that. Although you also get it from some in-house work sometimes.


It comes about from working (too) locally rather than expansively.

[Tom_Doak]

Is there a place for constructing what I’ll call yee olde day minimalism? No smooth finishing, no elaborate polishing, no frills instead plenty of basic rustic and unsophisticated features that are rough and ragged around the edges with an obvious to the eye look of how the construction work was done?
Not sure I’m explaining this as well as I could but hopefully folks will get the drift. Kind of an earlier, in fact much, much earlier, generation of minimalism.

Eddie Hackett was apparently a saint of a man -- the only American designer in my lifetime who did the work for close to free was Geoff Cornish.


Nevertheless, their work was built with modern equipment, and the lack of polish makes even the simplest artificial feature stand out as man-made.  Why would you want to do that?  The "rough and ragged around the edges" you are looking for is stuff that was built BY HAND or by horse and plow.  Nobody does that anymore, so it doesn't come out looking that way unless you make a serious effort at it.  And Eddie Hackett never did that sort of thing, because he wasn't getting paid to be there enough to do it.


EDIT:  my first paragraph came out in 2-point type so I have resized it to be seen

[Garland Bayley]

Is there a place for constructing what I’ll call yee olde day minimalism? No smooth finishing, no elaborate polishing, no frills instead plenty of basic rustic and unsophisticated features that are rough and ragged around the edges with an obvious to the eye look of how the construction work was done?
Not sure I’m explaining this as well as I could but hopefully folks will get the drift. Kind of an earlier, in fact much, much earlier, generation of minimalism.

Atb

Like Mulranny, right?

[Thomas Dai]

I’m thinking even more minimal than Mulranny Garland and likely more so than Eddie Hacketts work Ally. Presumably Tom rough and ragged around the edges doesn’t have to be done by men with hand tools nor horses with scoops? Can’t it be done with say an excavator but without any finishing or smoothing later on? But as you say who would want to do it?
Much of the quirk and eccentricity beloved of some me included seems to have been done without much if any smoothing or polishing. The rough jagged edge stuff that is the earthworks at Yelverton being an example. The creation of decent sized hollows or deepened or enlarged existing hollows with the spoil dumped nearby in an erratic patterned hump or series of erratic humps of various different heights and widths and then left without any smoothing or polishing. Bit like using the earthworks of centuries old fortifications or former small quarry workings or a centuries old water channel like the Leat at Yelverton as unpolished features.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m still convinced that some of those rough and ready shapes you are talking about (I’m also thinking about green mounding at Kington) is just a poor, early attempt to make natural looking golf features.


It might look cool now (well at least to the small minority on here) but it was actually just very local shaping without the expansive tie-ins that come with modern day design and construction.

[Sean_A]

I’m still convinced that some of those rough and ready shapes you are talking about (I’m also thinking about green mounding at Kington) is just a poor, early attempt to make natural looking golf features.

It might look cool now (well at least to the small minority on here) but it was actually just very local shaping without the expansive tie-ins that come with modern day design and construction.

I don’t believe Hutchison thought for one second the green work at Kington looked natural. That guy was well versed in architecture. On the other hand I wouldn’t be surprised if Hutchison wasn’t involved in the construction.

I look at some old Dr Mac work and think it looks awful. Not natural at all, but trying to mimic nature. I think his ideas were expressed much better over time.

Ciao

[Michael Chadwick]

One contemporary defender of minimalism, and one that I wasn't at all expecting going in, is at Kye Goalby and Zac Blair's Tree Farm. By my count there are four completely bunker-less holes, and 9 bunker-less greens. Holes 3, 5, 6, 8-12 appear incredibly lay of land, relying on slope to dictate strategy and defend par, featuring green pads often seamlessly tied in at grade with their surrounds. Many of those holes could fit alongside what's at Pinehurst 2 or early era Augusta. I was quite taken by holes 5 and 6.


Yes, there is a style to the bunkering on the other 11 holes that scratches the itch of a different aesthetic, but the amount of understatement in Tree Farm's design is arguably a bolder decision to make today than building a redan. I really admire its "quieter" holes.

[Tom_Doak]

One contemporary defender of minimalism, and one that I wasn't at all expecting going in, is at Kye Goalby and Zac Blair's Tree Farm. By my count there are four completely bunker-less holes, and 9 bunker-less greens. Holes 3, 5, 6, 8-12 appear incredibly lay of land, relying on slope to dictate strategy and defend par, featuring green pads often seamlessly tied in at grade with their surrounds. Many of those holes could fit alongside what's at Pinehurst 2 or early era Augusta. I was quite taken by holes 5 and 6.

Yes, there is a style to the bunkering on the other 11 holes that scratches the itch of a different aesthetic, but the amount of understatement in Tree Farm's design is arguably a bolder decision to make today than building a redan. I really admire its "quieter" holes.

Building a Redan ceased to be bold at least 100 years ago, so your last paragraph is easy to agree with.


Fun fact:  the holes I worked on in my brief visit to the site were 3, 5, 6, 7, 10 and 11.  But I guess they changed #7 and went away from my green site. 

[Tim_Weiman]

One contemporary defender of minimalism, and one that I wasn't at all expecting going in, is at Kye Goalby and Zac Blair's Tree Farm. By my count there are four completely bunker-less holes, and 9 bunker-less greens. Holes 3, 5, 6, 8-12 appear incredibly lay of land, relying on slope to dictate strategy and defend par, featuring green pads often seamlessly tied in at grade with their surrounds. Many of those holes could fit alongside what's at Pinehurst 2 or early era Augusta. I was quite taken by holes 5 and 6.


Yes, there is a style to the bunkering on the other 11 holes that scratches the itch of a different aesthetic, but the amount of understatement in Tree Farm's design is arguably a bolder decision to make today than building a redan. I really admire its "quieter" holes.

Michael,


I haven’t seen The Tree Farm in person, but based on the drone video I have seen, it doesn’t appear that Kye Goalby and his team over did things. It is obviously a good property that the club’s members and guests should enjoy.


Happy to see you enjoyed your recent trip to Aiken. Obviously, it is now a very good place for golf assuming one can get access to the private courses.

[Jeff Schley]

So an interesting case for "minimalism" is Ladera GC in Thermal, CA. Hanse/Wagner admittedly moved more than they ever have to build this desert course. However, they did it in an effort to make it look minimal. Is this a new normal for design, where clients are now stating NO water features and NO palm trees to make it minimal? 
The grand Fazio designs, Trump water features, Discovery Land brochures are being seen as too pretentious and unsustainable. Thus more rustic, minimal looking finished products are going to continue proliferating?

BTW the par 4, 15th looks like one of the best short par 4's in recent memory. A nod to a bunkerless Riviera, I think of the Gate hole 16th at North Berwick with a back pin as well. Short, bunkerless raised narrow greens add nice variety and not often found.
   https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ladera-golf-club-gil-hanse-jim-wagner-photos-video

[Jeff_Mingay]

Kalen,

It seems to me that Wine Valley and Sagebrush were built lay of the land, i.e., minimalist.

Also seems to me that you have raved about them. Come to think of it, count Rock Creek CC in there too.

Are you sure you aren't enthralled with minimalism?

Wine Valley I could see, but I suspect there was a large amount of material(s) moved at the other two to get them playable.

However, my opinion is based in the aggregate of all the tens of thousands of courses worldwide.  Even among the 125 or so I've played for every interesting one done in this style there are at least 5 or 6 others that were dull.

They key to minimalism seems to be as stated, do you have an interesting/compelling site to start with.

Kalen,


We didn't move as much earth as you might think at Sagebrush, either. I was on the job start to finish throughout construction and can only think of two fairways that required what might be described as significant earthwork. Guess which ones 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

It seems to me that Wine Valley and Sagebrush were built lay of the land, i.e., minimalist.

Also seems to me that you have raved about them. Come to think of it, count Rock Creek CC in there too.

Are you sure you aren't enthralled with minimalism?

Wine Valley I could see, but I suspect there was a large amount of material(s) moved at the other two to get them playable.

However, my opinion is based in the aggregate of all the tens of thousands of courses worldwide.  Even among the 125 or so I've played for every interesting one done in this style there are at least 5 or 6 others that were dull.

They key to minimalism seems to be as stated, do you have an interesting/compelling site to start with.

Kalen,

We didn't move as much earth as you might think at Sagebrush, either. I was on the job start to finish throughout construction and can only think of two fairways that required what might be described as significant earthwork. Guess which ones 

Jeff,


IIRC it was 7 and 8?

[Andrew Harvie]

Kalen,

It seems to me that Wine Valley and Sagebrush were built lay of the land, i.e., minimalist.

Also seems to me that you have raved about them. Come to think of it, count Rock Creek CC in there too.

Are you sure you aren't enthralled with minimalism?

Wine Valley I could see, but I suspect there was a large amount of material(s) moved at the other two to get them playable.

However, my opinion is based in the aggregate of all the tens of thousands of courses worldwide.  Even among the 125 or so I've played for every interesting one done in this style there are at least 5 or 6 others that were dull.

They key to minimalism seems to be as stated, do you have an interesting/compelling site to start with.

Kalen,


We didn't move as much earth as you might think at Sagebrush, either. I was on the job start to finish throughout construction and can only think of two fairways that required what might be described as significant earthwork. Guess which ones 

I'm going to guess the 8th hole, and the 15th..?

[Garland Bayley]

I'm guessing the hole where Kalen took double digits, the 16th.
Maybe the 2nd.
I must admit, I don't remember the course that well. Had a look at
https://beyondthecontour.com/review-sagebrush-golf-club/

[Bill Brightly]

I’m not convinced a site must be compelling so long as the greens are.

Good point. IMO, Tillinghast made his career building superb green complexes on marginally compelling sites.

[Niall C]

I’m still convinced that some of those rough and ready shapes you are talking about (I’m also thinking about green mounding at Kington) is just a poor, early attempt to make natural looking golf features.

It might look cool now (well at least to the small minority on here) but it was actually just very local shaping without the expansive tie-ins that come with modern day design and construction.

I don’t believe Hutchison thought for one second the green work at Kington looked natural. That guy was well versed in architecture. On the other hand I wouldn’t be surprised if Hutchison wasn’t involved in the construction.

I look at some old Dr Mac work and think it looks awful. Not natural at all, but trying to mimic nature. I think his ideas were expressed much better over time.

Ciao

I've not been to Kingston but have seen photos and what I've seen reminds me a wee bit of some of the holes at Pitlochry that CKH worked on. I also don't think they look natural as such but they look like what passed for natural at the time.


With regards early MacKenzie, I totally agree. There was a refurb of Alwoodley a few years ago (Ken Moodie ?) which took it back to the very early style features. I only saw photos of the changes and I haven't been back to see if they are still there but it wouldn't surprise me if the club changed it back again because his early mounding with sand half way up the face didn't look clever.


Niall

[Ben Sims]

We’ve been found wanting!


https://beyondthecontour.com/golfs-post-punks-and-the-catch-22-of-following-the-golden-generation/


I enjoyed this article. It is heavy with references that I found somewhat nonessential. But the author does a good job discussing post-minimalism in my opinion.


I wanted to revive this recent thread with an observation I think the author missed. A significant number of his “post-punk” architects were the principle associates or key contributors to a significant number of the great works of the minimalist era.

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