[Mike Hendren]

Is it premature or is The Lido the final nail?


Are Sedge Valley and Pinehurst #10 minimalism’s  last stand?

[Rory Connaughton]

It's not dead but social media certainly incentivizes big and bold.


Query, what is the more noteworthy trend? Big and bold features or the massive investments in infrastructure beneath the course being made by some elite clubs?

[V_Halyard]

See the original and restored Oakland Hills or Lawsonia. There is room for minimal and maximal.
Many of the classics were majestic. Lido is one of those and was designed to be spectacular. In no way is it meant to be a retail or resort course so it is not a category killer.


Tom designed Sedge Valley across the street so the neighborhood remains in balance.

[V_Halyard]

It's not dead but social media certainly incentivizes big and bold.


Query, what is the more noteworthy trend? Big and bold features or the massive investments in infrastructure beneath the course being made by some elite clubs?

Good point.
Big land has big infrastructure demands which demand big features.
EG your place, a classic Flynn,  has to move a billion gallons of water on and off course after big weather events. 
Minimal Little ditches, tiny bunkers and little mounds won’t get that done.

[Rory Connaughton]

Sadly, true Vaughn. Gravity and fire hoses!

[Tim_Weiman]

Is it premature or is The Lido the final nail?


Are Sedge Valley and Pinehurst #10 minimalism’s  last stand?

Mike,


The idea of doing the Lido was discussed for a long time. Now that it has been done, why should I think it is anything more than a one time thing which doesn’t signify any trend in modern golf architecture?

[Mike Hendren]

Tim, is it possible that folks are raving about the Lido in part because it was delivered into a market where bold design has become de rigueur?  Could it embolden the maximalists to take even greater liberties with design.  Did Sand Hills not spawn an entire new design era?  Could the Lido prove to be just as pivotal?


That said it remains the only golf course on my near empty bucket list. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

Brambles (C&C....20-30 minutes north of Napa) is about as "Minimal" as it gets.  Cue Mark Twain quote.

[Joe Hancock]

The Lido is the opposite of minimalism….it’s been built 3 times.

[Mike Hendren]

Hello Joe.  Didn't a wise man once say "there's no money in doing less?"


Hope you're well.

[Paul Rudovsky]

The Lido is the opposite of minimalism….it’s been built 3 times.

Ever think that it has been built three times because people thought is is a superb design?

Frankly I do not "get" how Lido is the end of minimalism.  If Lido is anything, it is the return of "thinking" golf courses and IMO that is big time great.  Other "thinking" courses are TOC and ANGC before the changes to "Tiger-proof" it.  And as of right now I would add Old Barnwell to that short list.  These are courses that require tons of local knowledge to decipher and also require discipline to play where the course dictates.  Golf was always meant to be played mostly in the 6" space between our ears, so we should celebrate course that require that!

[Joe Hancock]

The Lido is the opposite of minimalism….it’s been built 3 times.

Ever think that it has been built three times because people thought is is a superb design?

Frankly I do not "get" how Lido is the end of minimalism.  If Lido is anything, it is the return of "thinking" golf courses and IMO that is big time great.  Other "thinking" courses are TOC and ANGC before the changes to "Tiger-proof" it.  And as of right now I would add Old Barnwell to that short list.  These are courses that require tons of local knowledge to decipher and also require discipline to play where the course dictates.  Golf was always meant to be played mostly in the 6" space between our ears, so we should celebrate course that require that!

Paul,


You read too much into my statement of fact. I didn’t intend to say The Lido (in any of its iterations) is not superb design.


Joe

[V_Halyard]

Tim, is it possible that folks are raving about the Lido in part because it was delivered into a market where bold design has become de rigueur?  Could it embolden the maximalists to take even greater liberties with design.  Did Sand Hills not spawn an entire new design era?  Could the Lido prove to be just as pivotal?

That said it remains the only golf course on my near empty bucket list.

No, it is unlikely that Lido will embolden, the maximalists to take more liberties.
It may encourage better creativity. 
Lido itself is a one-off golden age incarnate. That level of intensity is not commercially, publicly, nor privately sustainable across the industry. It never plays the same twice for anybody.
There isn’t one retail Golf bone on the property.

All perceived GCA categories outside of Lido are perfectly safe. This did get Rory and Rudo lit up. Between the Packers Cowboys, Rams, Lions and now GCA, I have to go make some popcorn and pour some single malt
Go Pack Go

[V_Halyard]

The Lido is the opposite of minimalism….it’s been built 3 times.

Ever think that it has been built three times because people thought is is a superb design?

Frankly I do not "get" how Lido is the end of minimalism.  If Lido is anything, it is the return of "thinking" golf courses and IMO that is big time great.  Other "thinking" courses are TOC and ANGC before the changes to "Tiger-proof" it.  And as of right now I would add Old Barnwell to that short list.  These are courses that require tons of local knowledge to decipher and also require discipline to play where the course dictates.  Golf was always meant to be played mostly in the 6" space between our ears, so we should celebrate course that require that!

Old Barnwell is whimsical magic.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim, is it possible that folks are raving about the Lido in part because it was delivered into a market where bold design has become de rigueur?  Could it embolden the maximalists to take even greater liberties with design.  Did Sand Hills not spawn an entire new design era?  Could the Lido prove to be just as pivotal?

That said it remains the only golf course on my near empty bucket list.

No, it is unlikely that Lido will embolden, the maximalists to take more liberties.
It may encourage better creativity. 
Lido itself is a one-off golden age incarnate. That level of intensity is not commercially, publicly, nor privately sustainable across the industry. It never plays the same twice for anybody.
There isn’t one retail Golf bone on the property.

All perceived GCA categories outside of Lido are perfectly safe. This did get Rory and Rudo lit up. Between the Packers Cowboys, Rams, Lions and now GCA, I have to go make some popcorn and pour some single malt
Go Pack Go

Who are the maximalists? What is the definition of maximalism?

[Tom_Doak]

Who are the maximalists? What is the definition of maximalism?

David Kidd
Kyle Phillips
King / Collins
Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus before any of them


I won’t try to define it but I know it when I see it.  I’ve even had to do it occasionally - as we are doing in Florida right now.  But then in Texas, minimalism is alive and well.

[astavrides]

Who are the maximalists? What is the definition of maximalism?

David Kidd
Kyle Phillips
King / Collins
Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus before any of them


I won’t try to define it but I know it when I see it.  I’ve even had to do it occasionally - as we are doing in Florida right now.  But then in Texas, minimalism is alive and well.

Was the Rawls Course maximal or minimal or neither?

[Buck Wolter]

Kingsley is so minimal its maximal

[Colin Sheehan]

Alive and well in Venus, Florida.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I always liked Jay Morrish's phrase, "necessitism."  And, it is what most architects "should" do, i.e. evaluate a site, owner, and end users and come up with a design crafted for that unique situation.


If forcing a hole into unsuitable topo is wrong, wouldn't forcing a favored style on any and all sites be bad, too?


I also like Einstein's quote about making things as simple as they can be, but no simpler.


I also recall art classes, where they teach that just one too many brush strokes can ruin a great painting.

[Tim_Weiman]

Who are the maximalists? What is the definition of maximalism?

David Kidd
Kyle Phillips
King / Collins
Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus before any of them


I won’t try to define it but I know it when I see it.  I’ve even had to do it occasionally - as we are doing in Florida right now.  But then in Texas, minimalism is alive and well.

Tom,


Thanks. A related question:


Do you think there is anything significant about your recently completed Lido project in terms of trends in golf course design? Or is it really just a one off replica project that while brilliantly executed doesn’t say anything about design, i.e., the minimalism vs maximalism perspective some people apparently have?


Just to be clear, I’m asking about the course as golfers will play it, not the technology that went into making the Lido re-creation so good?

[Tom_Doak]

Do you think there is anything significant about your recently completed Lido project in terms of trends in golf course design? Or is it really just a one off replica project that while brilliantly executed doesn’t say anything about design, i.e., the minimalism vs maximalism perspective some people apparently have?

Just to be clear, I’m asking about the course as golfers will play it, not the technology that went into making the Lido re-creation so good?

Tim:


I've been asked this a lot lately, but usually in relation to the technology:  will the tech we used to build Lido encourage other architects to be even more daring and build wilder stuff?


Lido was a flat site that was totally created wall to wall.  Its origin doesn't really have anything to do with the technology; the whole design was done by C.B. Macdonald more than 100 years ago, and they used a physical, plasticine model to work out their ideas and create it, and they followed the model to the letter in building the golf course.


Likewise, I've heard that Steve Wynn insisted Tom Fazio build a detailed physical model of Shadow Creek before construction, so he could get a feel for it from a pinhole camera.  [Computer graphics were a different animal in 1990 than they are today.]


There are always going to be golf courses built on sites that have little natural interest.  There are a bunch of them being built right now in SE Florida [where I am tonight], virtually side by side.  It's up to the designer whether to space the holes well apart and go back to flat, native vegetation between holes or to push the holes together and contour from wall to wall; the decision depends partly on each individual site.  Our client here has very high goals, so we are taking the latter, more "maximalist" approach I guess.


It is entirely possible today to choose your 18 favorite holes [as long as they don't rely on an ocean or a huge slope or an 80-foot live oak], sort out how to cut and paste them all together, and re-create them on a flat site.


In a couple of weeks I'll go back to north Texas to work on our new project there, and that one is as minimalist as it gets, because there are green sites and good fairway contours out there already, created by Nature.  Nature was not as kind to Florida!


Is one approach inherently better than the other?  I think it depends on what you've got to work with, and what the mission is.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,


Thanks. Your post got me thinking about my college thesis advisor, the late Professor Fouad Ajami, who once gave a lecture about what he called “attack from the right, attack from the left” to describe a political campaign strategy.


I seem to recall folks taking shots at you for espousing “minimalism”. Now it appears to be for “maximalism”. I guess.


I get the rationale for minimalism, but not the criticism of maximalism on a flat featureless site. The later seems to be about satisfying the client’s desires, not about making a personal statement about what is best for golf architecture generally.

[John Kirk]

It's worthwhile for me to make a case for minimalism, since the discussion is generally touting the highly engineered course.

The great minimalist course will always be superior to the engineering marvel.  The minimalist course requires better land, and superior land is more perfect than man's heavy hand.

A great piece of untouched golfing land has been molded by evolution and environment for a very long time.  The contours of the land have developed over thousands of years, and the things that live there are deeply connected to one another.  Nothing trumps that beauty.  You can engineer a course to make golf a delightful game, but it will never beat a minimally invasive course in an environment that makes sense.
 

[mike_beene]

So a great piece of land creates far more pressure.

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