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Mark Chaplin

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2024, 05:24:36 PM »
Ally I don’t know the answer to your question but my caddying jobs last year pretty much split 50:50 between British and overseas golfers, of the overseas visitors 80:20 were from the USA.


Many would be surprised how big the UK market is at the moment.
Cave Nil Vino

Ian Andrew

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2024, 05:59:32 PM »
You can have both good golf, a beautiful coast, and a great time in Southwest England for reasonable prices. I love it in Devon and Cornwall. These are in-season prices. The courses also have twilight fees that are much cheaper.
                                Pounds.   Dollars
Saunton (both)            220       279
St Enodoc.                    150.       191
Burnham & Berrow
.      150.       191
Royal North Devon       100.       127
Trevose.                     105.       134

Overseas memberships as Sauton and RND are inexpensive.


I've made that trip and would highly recommend it. If you are a foodie, as well as a golfer, this is the trip for you!
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2024, 06:10:54 PM »
It would be interesting to see a chart, over time, of the ratio of visitors fees compared to a membership for a local person.  What would that be at these courses now?  As high as 50% (in that a visitor pays 50% for one round of what it would cost a local person to play all year).   And how would that compare to 20 years ago.

Sean_A

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2024, 06:31:23 PM »
It would be interesting to see a chart, over time, of the ratio of visitors fees compared to a membership for a local person.  What would that be at these courses now?  As high as 50% (in that a visitor pays 50% for one round of what it would cost a local person to play all year).   And how would that compare to 20 years ago.

I think it’s closer to 3-5 visitor rounds per 1 year of local membership dues for most of the big guns. I think my club is about 10/11 to 1 and it’s midish top 100 GB&I….tons of very good clubs will be in this range.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Worth

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2024, 07:10:03 PM »
Thanks for putting this together. It’s helpful.


For some reason I thought I paid a lot more for Macrihinish in 2022 than the 120 British pounds you’ve listed for 2024. But a quick review of my credit card statement shows I paid $105.32 US and the exchange rate was $1.17 equals 1 British pound pound.


This brings me to my next point – – my 2022 UK trip occurred in Aug-Sep 22 — a busy time in the UK. Notable for the Queen passing away on September 8 and then 2 weeks later then-Prime Minister Liz Truss introducing her infamous mini budget which caused the pound to crash to $1.06. I therefore demand, as an American tourist, that you bring back Liz Truss in time for this summer’s trip  ::)

« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 07:12:45 PM by Mike Worth »

Dan_Callahan

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2024, 09:54:15 AM »

A visitor is anyone who isn't a member of the club. I don't know about Ireland but in Scotland at a lot of clubs most visitors are Scottish/locals and therefore not from overseas.

Niall


Again, I was talking about the gap in greens fees. If you have a Golf Ireland card, your greens fees are half what an overseas visitor pays.

Mark Pearce

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2024, 10:31:01 AM »

It's not overseas visitors. It's visitors generally. I am not aware of any clubs that have a specially high American rate  :)


I was talking about Ireland, and given that it's an island, I would consider pretty much all visitors as being "overseas." Wasn't limiting that to just Americans.
Someone from Cork visiting a course in Dublin is still a visitor.  In GB&I a "visitor" is someone who is not a member and not playing with a member (that'd be a guest).  Locals play local courses, too.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2024, 10:33:14 AM »
I therefore demand, as an American tourist, that you bring back Liz Truss in time for this summer’s trip  ::)
Even with our recent electoral penchant for self-harm, that isn't happening.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Brian Finn

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2024, 10:56:31 AM »
In GB&I a "visitor" is someone who is not a member and not playing with a member (that'd be a guest).  Locals play local courses, too.
This is not entirely accurate.  Quite a few courses have two categories of visitor.  I have several potential itineraries "in the works" and have seen some version of this in Scotland, England, and Ireland.  A few examples from Scotland:

Lundin (peak season):
150 visitor
120 UK resident (20% discount)

Panmure (peak season):
160 visitor
135 UK golf club member (16% discount)

Monifieth Medal (peak season):
125 visitor
95 Scottish golf club member (24% discount)

Montrose (peak season):
140 visitor
70 Scottish Golf Union member (50% discount)

Carnoustie, Arbroath, Scotscraig, Elie, and many others do still have just one visitor rate.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Mark Pearce

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2024, 11:16:59 AM »
In GB&I a "visitor" is someone who is not a member and not playing with a member (that'd be a guest).  Locals play local courses, too.
This is not entirely accurate. 
It is entirely accurate.  The existence of different classes of visitor, all of whom are not members of the club and not playing with a member does not detract from the accuracy of the broader definition. 


But yes, some clubs do distinguish between classes of visitor.  Dumbarnie, for instance, has, I think, at least three different classes of Scottish resident, depending on how locally they live.  This is relatively new and still rare, I think.  But I suspect it may become more common.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2024, 11:19:28 AM »
In GB&I a "visitor" is someone who is not a member and not playing with a member (that'd be a guest).  Locals play local courses, too.
This is not entirely accurate. 
It is entirely accurate.  The existence of different classes of visitor, all of whom are not members of the club and not playing with a member does not detract from the accuracy of the broader definition. 

But yes, some clubs do distinguish between classes of visitor.  Dumbarnie, for instance, has, I think, at least three different classes of Scottish resident, depending on how locally they live.  This is relatively new and still rare, I think.  But I suspect it may become more common.
That is fine, but I don't really care about semantics.  The point that others were trying to make earlier, and I was attempting to reinforce, is that not all visitors pay the same rate.  I should not have cited your post as inaccurate. 
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Sean_A

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2024, 04:49:39 AM »
In GB&I a "visitor" is someone who is not a member and not playing with a member (that'd be a guest).  Locals play local courses, too.
This is not entirely accurate.  Quite a few courses have two categories of visitor.  I have several potential itineraries "in the works" and have seen some version of this in Scotland, England, and Ireland.  A few examples from Scotland:

Lundin (peak season):
150 visitor
120 UK resident (20% discount)

Panmure (peak season):
160 visitor
135 UK golf club member (16% discount)

Monifieth Medal (peak season):
125 visitor
95 Scottish golf club member (24% discount)

Montrose (peak season):
140 visitor
70 Scottish Golf Union member (50% discount)

Carnoustie, Arbroath, Scotscraig, Elie, and many others do still have just one visitor rate.

I was at an English club recently which is considering adding a non UK fee for visitors. This would be the first in England that I encountered. The concept is spreading in Scotland.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2024, 05:22:23 AM »


But yes, some clubs do distinguish between classes of visitor.  Dumbarnie, for instance, has, I think, at least three different classes of Scottish resident, depending on how locally they live.  This is relatively new and still rare, I think.  But I suspect it may become more common.


Mark


It's not that new. I believe it was Kingsbarns that was the first to offer different rates for overseas golfers, UK golfers, Scottish golfers, Fife residents and indeed a separate rate for R&A members (from memory the R&A put up some of the money for the development but could have remembered that wrongly). That was back in c.2000. Interesting that it was an American developer (Mark Parsinen) who introduced it, no doubt better attuned to what visiting golfers from the US were willing to pay but aware that those rates would simply not be affordable/acceptable to the UK market.


Not sure if any other development/club followed suit until Parsinen did the same trick at Castle Stuart. Since then perhaps pay & play courses such Mach Dunes, Dumbarnie, Turnberry etc might have done the same but what I think is new in recent years is that clubs are now following this trend, enabled no doubt due to the relative strength of the dollar.


Niall






« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 05:52:16 AM by Niall C »

David Jones

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2024, 05:33:59 AM »
In GB&I a "visitor" is someone who is not a member and not playing with a member (that'd be a guest).  Locals play local courses, too.
This is not entirely accurate.  Quite a few courses have two categories of visitor.  I have several potential itineraries "in the works" and have seen some version of this in Scotland, England, and Ireland.  A few examples from Scotland:

Lundin (peak season):
150 visitor
120 UK resident (20% discount)

Panmure (peak season):
160 visitor
135 UK golf club member (16% discount)

Monifieth Medal (peak season):
125 visitor
95 Scottish golf club member (24% discount)

Montrose (peak season):
140 visitor
70 Scottish Golf Union member (50% discount)

Carnoustie, Arbroath, Scotscraig, Elie, and many others do still have just one visitor rate.

I was at an English club recently which is considering adding a non UK fee for visitors. This would be the first in England that I encountered. The concept is spreading in Scotland.

Ciao


It's happening already this year Sean.


Ganton -

GB&I - £195
International - £250

On the website it says GB&I need to be a member of a club but when I called up they said that wasn't the case.

In 2020 it was £140 for everyone

Alwoodley -

GB&I - £190
International - £225.

In 2020 it was £125 for everyone.

These increases are significantly above inflation.

Niall C

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2024, 05:46:48 AM »
Thanks David, I'm very glad I took the opportunity to play Alwoodley and Ganton when I did as they are now way above what I'd be willing to pay.


Niall

David Jones

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2024, 06:00:47 AM »
Thanks David, I'm very glad I took the opportunity to play Alwoodley and Ganton when I did as they are now way above what I'd be willing to pay.


Niall


Indeed. It's the case at so many places. I'm just finishing up some research of the 2024 increases at the top 100 courses in the UK which I do every year and it's sobering reading...

Niall C

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2024, 06:57:06 AM »
David


The buzz word for the last few years has been sustainable. I wonder how sustainable some of these greenfees are in the mid to long term, particularly as the pent up demand caused by COVID subsides; the possibility of the pound gaining on the dollar; and a continued reduction in inflation ?


Niall

David Jones

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2024, 07:15:35 AM »
David


The buzz word for the last few years has been sustainable. I wonder how sustainable some of these greenfees are in the mid to long term, particularly as the pent up demand caused by COVID subsides; the possibility of the pound gaining on the dollar; and a continued reduction in inflation ?


Niall


Niall,

Demand is so high still, mainly from the US. The Covid backlog has washed through now pretty much but there is an attitude of not putting off that trip of a lifetime.

There are a dozen or so clubs which were sold out for this summer well before the end of last year. These tend to be the highly ranked members' clubs in Ireland and Scotland. They are able to do pretty much whatever they like on green fees it seems. I have seen some of their 2025 rates already and it just keeps going. Several are now reducing the number of visitor times available as they don't need any more revenue so are keeping more times for members.

But, there are signs that some outside of this group who aren't finding it so easy. Interestingly there are a couple of English clubs who pushed up prices a lot and they are actually down on visitor numbers versus where they normally are for this time of year.

There is definitely an attitude though that some clubs are happy to price out the domestic market in order to have sometimes fewer, but higher, green fees coming from the international market.

I'm currently writing a blog piece on the consequences (some unintended) of all of this. It's not insignificant.

Cheers,
David



Thomas Dai

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2024, 08:27:23 AM »
Notable how the 4 golfing parts of GB&NI do not do each other any favours when it comes to visitors from others of the 4 paying a greenfee. Also how winter greenfees no longer exist at many clubs and how the pricing basis and number of entries in club open comp have risen.
Changed days.

atb

Richard Fisher

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2024, 08:42:01 AM »
It's also worth flagging how much visitors now expect for their elevated fees, above and beyond the golf course itself, including a level of clubhouse and daylong F&B coverage that would have been unthinkable twenty years ago.
Anybody who has ever looked at the unmonitored Facebook or similar comments on links courses will see unfavourable comments from visitors that will make members of this site squirm (course 'far too brown and fast' and 'very unreceptive greens' etc etc) and conditioning is, rightly or wrongly, always an issue, upon which almost all Top 100-ish UK courses are spending rather more than they once did, even allowing for inflation.
Quite a lot of Top 100 courses still do offer 'Winter Green Fees' but these are probably what TD was used to paying as the Summer Rate  :) :)
Still a bit shocked though by what some of the great Yorkshire courses are proposing to charge this year, but doubtless the marginal returns will work in their favour...

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2024, 08:52:21 AM »
An international rate is a pretty low trick I think.


In the UK we have county card rates for members of clubs but many of the top 100 don't allow this because basically almost everyone at the top courses would have one.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Michael Morandi

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Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2024, 10:03:43 PM »
I didn't want to thread hijack Sean's Scotland price gouging thread as this is broader. First, it is great that the model in the UK is very welcoming to visitors. Second, yes it has gotten quite expensive, but supply and demand, if you can't afford it stay home.
So I have some lists below sorted by:
  • Country
  • Course by Top100golfcourses country ranking (not best, but easiest to use)
  • I have the top 50 in that list for UK & Ireland listed
  • Local currency is first column with US dollars conversion (1.27 for pounds and 1.09 for euro) in the second column
  • The price is for listed for 1 visitor green fee for peak summer 2024, midweek if cheaper.
  • This is green fee only, not inclusive of any other caddie/buggie fees
  • Sunningdale is $762 for both, Muirfield is $667 for 2 rounds/lunch
  • Several courses don't have listed fees (Royal Aberdeen technical issue), several are private (Loch Lomond, Swinley Forest, Wentworth), some you have to inquire (Ardfin, Rye, Royal West Norfolk).  If anyone has definitive 2024 visitor prices let me know.
  • For the 17 England courses with prices it would cost $5,232 or $308 per round. Assuming Sunningdale 36 day promo rate
  • For the 16 Scotland courses with prices it would cost $6,118 or $382 per round.
  • For the 7 Ireland courses with prices it would cost $2,262 or $323 per round.
  • For the 2 N. Ireland courses with prices it would cost $889 or $445 per round.
  • For the 1 Wales course listed it would cost $279 per round.
  • For the 43 courses listed it would cost $14,780 or $344 per round.
  • We can maybe do this list again in 2025 and we have a running total to refer to.
England
Coursepoundsdollars
Royal St. Georges-1330419
Sunningdale-2/5600762
Royal Birkdale-3340432
Swinley Forest-4not listed    xxx
Woodhall Spa-6225286
Royal Lytham-7320406
Ganton-8195248
St. Georges Hill-9255324
St. Endoc-10150191
Royal C Ports-11235298
West Sussex-12150191
Alwoodley-13225286
Walton Heath-14260330
Royal Liverpool-15310394
Royal W. Norfolk-16not listedxxx
Rye -17not listedxxx
Silloth on Solway-18    95121
Hollinwell-19190241
Wentworth-20not listedxxx
Berkshire-21240305

Scotland
Coursepoundsdollars
St. Andrews Old-1320406
Trump Turnberry-2      495629
Muirfield-3340432
Royal Dornoch-4280356
North Berwick-5240305
Carnoustie-6300381
Kingsbarns-7418531
Castle Stuart-8295375
Royal Aberdeen-9not listed    xxx
Trump International-10    400508
Cruden Bay-11175222
Ardfin-12not surexxx
Royal Troon-13340432
Prestwick-14270343
Loch Lomond-15not listedxxx
Gleneagles-16280356
Dumbarnie-17299380
Western Gailes-18245311
Machrahanish-19120152

Ireland
Courseeuros   dollars
Ballybunion-1350382
Lahinch-2325354
St. Patricks-3240262
Portmarnock-4325354
European Club-5    290316
Waterville-6300327
The Island-7270294

Northern Ireland
Coursepounds    dollars
RC Down-1360457
Royal Portrush-2    340432

Wales
Coursepounds    dollars
Royal Porthcawl    220279




Thanks for doing this, Jeff. I wasn’t tempted to play Trump courses to begin with, but now I won’t even think of them.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2024, 03:34:53 AM »
In GB&I a "visitor" is someone who is not a member and not playing with a member (that'd be a guest).  Locals play local courses, too.
This is not entirely accurate.  Quite a few courses have two categories of visitor.  I have several potential itineraries "in the works" and have seen some version of this in Scotland, England, and Ireland.  A few examples from Scotland:

Lundin (peak season):
150 visitor
120 UK resident (20% discount)

Panmure (peak season):
160 visitor
135 UK golf club member (16% discount)

Monifieth Medal (peak season):
125 visitor
95 Scottish golf club member (24% discount)

Montrose (peak season):
140 visitor
70 Scottish Golf Union member (50% discount)

Carnoustie, Arbroath, Scotscraig, Elie, and many others do still have just one visitor rate.

I was at an English club recently which is considering adding a non UK fee for visitors. This would be the first in England that I encountered. The concept is spreading in Scotland.

Ciao


It's happening already this year Sean.


Ganton -

GB&I - £195
International - £250

On the website it says GB&I need to be a member of a club but when I called up they said that wasn't the case.

In 2020 it was £140 for everyone

Alwoodley -

GB&I - £190
International - £225.

In 2020 it was £125 for everyone.

These increases are significantly above inflation.

Yep, it’s disappointing, but for me most of the big guns jumped the shark long ago. There aren’t many left I would consider good value.

The club I have in mind is nowhere near the stature of Alwoodley and Ganton.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Feeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2024, 07:48:34 AM »
Alas, gone are golf's greatest values. My old age is showing, I suppose, but this is giving me a serious case of Bucket List Shrinkage. Beyond dishing-out the cash, hate the feeling of being chiseled…one visiting foursome’s green fees more than, or equal to, a local’s annual dues. I know. I know. I know -- supply & demand.  Suppose it makes Bandon Dunes pricing, slightly, less insane.

John Handley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2024 Visitor Fees UK & Ireland
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2024, 01:31:49 PM »
I am dealing with many clients who are booking golf trips to GB&I, US, and Mexico.  Not one person has complained about the pricing.  Now, granted, most of my clients are pretty wealthy but it does show that there is plenty of demand.  And by the way, it's not just green fees, it's hotel rooms too.


That said, I do think there is going to be a point where the big increases year over year slow down.  Probably the same with golf club invitation fees which I would argue are probably at an all-time high. 


But with the stock market run up over the past 20 years, apparently lots of guys in their 50s - 70s are flush with cash.



2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

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