Payne Whitney's Greentree Estate Course, Manhasset, NY

[Colin Sheehan]

Hey everyone,
I put this together earlier this year, had meant to share for a while: the CBM-designed estate course for Payne Whitney, Yale class of 1898. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qVpFa8x9rBShsEVn9

From Scotland's Gift: Golf: "When Payne Whitney proposed building an eighteen-hole golf course on his property at Manhasset there was plenty of room, but the land was not adapted to it, and I persuaded him to build a nine-hole course  and to build it on some twenty or thirty acres immediately back of his home. I grouped three classic holes in the centre of the land which had to be played to at different angles. In this way it was perfectly simple to get nine good holes on a small acerage. It could easily take care of ten or twelve men playing, and I doubt very much if there was ever more than that number golfing over his course. It was beautifully kept up and one had as many fine golfing shots as he could have had on any golf course."

I was always confused that Bahto's book had some random drawing for this course and he describes Payne's older brother, Harry Payne Whitney '94, as the owner. That is easy to mix up the brothers, but I'm not sure where he got that course layout...was it on the older brother's estate "the Manse" which is presently the location of Old Westbury?

https://househistree.com/houses/the-manse-old-westbury

I am not entirely sure but I think I got the routing correct. I'm fascinated with this idea of a 2500 yard course on 17 acres and re-using the fairway turf in the middle of it. Imagine CBM laid out the course in your back yard?! Also, I love the hole names...and not one template.

On that par-three third called "Little Pull," what is probably a reverse-Redan, I love that severe short-sided bunker on the left.  And that Road green 8th looks pretty cool. And it seems like the par-three ninth played past the 5th green, almost like a front/back double green.

[Nigel Islam]

Colin, this is absolutely a fantastic find. You are 100 percent correct about the missteps in The Evangelist of Golf story on this course.


The aerial for both the Moore course and the Payne Whitney course do not correspond very well to the schematics in George’s book.


Additionally I am not sure we have much evidence that Raynor did an estate course for J.P. Knapp as The Evangelist of Golf alludes to.


Finally the “William Stauffer course” George lists as a Raynor in the book really just seems to be reference to the Metairie course to me.

[Bret Lawrence]

Colin,


This is a terrific compilation.  I have never seen the Greentree course scorecard before.  Thanks for sharing this.  I have never attempted the routing without the scorecard, but after looking at your layout and the scorecard, I think you nailed it.


I am including the 1926 aerial of the Greentree course below highlighted in green.  The coloring helps show off some of the course's features:


The diagram you included of the Nine-Hole Practice Course in Macdonald's book is very close to what was built at NGLA.  Macdonald compares the diagram to Eddie Moore's estate course, but his book was published prior to the establishment of a practice course at NGLA.  If you compare the diagram in Macdonald's book with layouts and aerials of the NGLA practice course, you will see a lot of similarities.


1928 Nine-Hole Practice Course Layout:

Scotland's Gift: Golf


1929 Layout of NGLA Practice Course:

National Golf Links of America.

1930 Aerial of NGLA Practice Course
1930 Aerial Photograph of NGLA Practice Course:

Nassau County, Long Island, NY-Land Records Viewer, 2019.

Bret

[Cal Carlisle]

I love post like this. Bravo!

[Craig Disher]

Not intending to highjack this but is there any information on the few holes that were built to the SW of the main residence?

[Colin Sheehan]

Craig,
A little southwest is obviously Fresh Meadow, but I think you are asking about what looks to be three greens on the Grace estate called Tullaroan that later became the grounds for Deepdale's relocation in the mid-50s.

http://www.oldlongisland.com/2011/01/tullaroan.html

On that site, there appears to be a circular green and two other diagonal Redan-looking greens, but I also see a few trees among them. Could it have been a three hole practice course? The owner J.P. Grace was married to C.B. Macdonald's daughter Janet after all. Perhaps a wedding present?!


Bret,
Years ago, I walked the location of those three greens in the NGLA range. Too bad they were sorta washed away over time.
Creek had a version in their range until the recent renovations and they appear to have been incorporated into a larger feature.


Nigel,
I wasn't trying to suggest Bahto's book got the three hole course wrong. Macdonald says as much in that passage.


I do wonder just how many more of them were built. I suppose if people didn't build them by 1930, they didn't get built at all.


I'm always trying to convince some friends of mine to build a version of it on the properties of their rural weekend homes.

[Craig Disher]

Craig,
A little southwest is obviously Fresh Meadow, but I think you are asking about what looks to be three greens on the Grace estate called Tullaroan that later became the grounds for Deepdale's relocation in the mid-50s.

http://www.oldlongisland.com/2011/01/tullaroan.html

On that site, there appears to be a circular green and two other diagonal Redan-looking greens, but I also see a few trees among them. Could it have been a three hole practice course? The owner J.P. Grace was married to C.B. Macdonald's daughter Janet after all. Perhaps a wedding present?!

Colin,The holes I'm referring to weren't at Tullaroan. There was a short course I've seen on a 1940 aerial that is on the Greentree Estate immediately south of what's now the Whitney Center. The 1940 aerial shows a much humbler building that was replaced by the Whitney Center around 2004-5. It appears that there were 4-5 holes with some unusual features.

[Colin Sheehan]

Craig,
I have an aerial from the 30s that you sent me a long time ago, but I would love to see what you are referencing.


I wonder if you are seeing some existing or remnants of equestrian features. I can see all sorts of steeplechase fencing. I wonder if that looks like golf. Come to think of it, such a playing field could be a pretty good golf challenge.

[Craig Disher]

Craig,
I have an aerial from the 30s that you sent me a long time ago, but I would love to see what you are referencing.


I wonder if you are seeing some existing or remnants of equestrian features. I can see all sorts of steeplechase fencing. I wonder if that looks like golf. Come to think of it, such a playing field could be a pretty good golf challenge.

Colin,
Certainly a golf course; I've seen seen enough of these old NLEs. I've had the image for a long time and was never sure where it was until this thread. What's a good email for you?

[Tom Dunne]

So interesting. I had always thought that the open land visible through the trees beyond the 7th at Deepdale was the remnants of the Greentree course, but this thread shows it was on a different piece of the property.


Speaking of Deepdale, a few years ago I had occasion to spend some research time at the Suffolk Co. Vanderbilt Museum, which occupies a later-life home of the club's founder, W.K. Vanderbilt Jr. (As an aside, the papers there are housed in a large second-story covered patio overlooking the Sound, and I'm convinced you won't find an archive with a better view.) This property also once featured an estate course designed by Devereux Emmet, and some of the bones/hole corridors are readily discernible from the parking lot. 


Happy New Year, everyone!