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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2023, 06:32:30 PM »
Apart from my own courses mentioned above, my first thought here was The Ranch Club in Carefree, Pete Dye's brother Roy's project on what is now part of Desert Mountain.


Perry Dye had an office in Scottsdale for a while and for a couple of months, John Harbottle and I would go up to The Ranch every week or two to play.  I don't remember ever seeing any other golfers there . . . Roy had miscalculated how much water he needed for 18 holes, or lost the source, so they could barely keep nine holes alive with a bare-bones irrigation system.  The fairways were pretty narrow and a poor drive would finish in the D.G. and a bad one in the cactus.  But it was a beautiful routing over some interesting terrain -- a bit like Apache Stronghold, honestly -- and it was always a fun trip up there.


I have never looked on Google Earth to see if any of the Desert Mountain courses overlap with the original nine holes.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2023, 08:30:47 PM »
Old - Colwood National, a strong Vern Macan course near the Columbia River in Portland, OR. My first hole-in-one. Also a tournament win in a full field police tournament.


New - The only NLE modern courses that I played more than once were Apache Stronghold and Mike Young's Long Shadow in Georgia, part of a NLE Dixie Cup swing.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2023, 09:36:15 PM »
Any Jersey guys remember Bamm Hollow CC near Lincroft/Middletown? It was a private 27-hole club built in the 1960's that closed around 2011 for a housing development.

Per wikipedia, Jim Nantz was a member there in his younger days. :)


The red and white nines were pretty solid, played a ton of high school matches there, and high school state championships.


They added the “Blue” nine later and that was pretty bad


Have a lot of good memories ther

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2023, 12:22:09 AM »
My favorite two are in the LA area, where I no longer live:
Old - Fox Hills Golf Club, a George Thomas design that was terrific fun for a new, teenage golfer to try to learn the game (still trying . . )
New - Malibu Golf Club - isolated up in the Santa Monica Mountains, it offered a very un-LA-like vibe, with views mostly of the chaparral and hills.  Also lots of fun to play, and generally good conditions.
An in-betweener would be the 9-holer that was built adjacent to Marina Del Rey, and on which I played a lot of my high school team practice rounds and matches.
Jeff Kallberg
I also loved and miss Malibu. Started playing there when it was just a 9 hole course affiliated with Perfect Liberty Church(tax dodge). There have been rumors for years that someone was going to revive it but the water situation finally killed it.
The best "executive" course I ever played designed by RT Jones Sr. outside of Sacramento, CA was Eldorado Hills golf course which was closed for athletic fields which were never built. Par 61 with a few par 4's and a par 5 but the most challenging par 3's anywhere. Changes in elevation, drop shots, ponds and great greens.  Built in the late 1960's. Does that count as old now? :o

I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2023, 02:48:54 AM »
Quail Ranch (Desmond Muirhead) off Gilman Springs Rd. between Moreno Valley and San Jacinto.


Can't think of anything "old" worth mentioning that I've played.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2023, 03:32:45 AM »
Modern - Indian Spring CC in Rockville MD.  An affordable, private club with a pair of Wm/David Gordon courses very typical of good post-WWII architecture. Even though it was profitable and had a solid, loyal membership, it was sold in the 1980s for housing.
Old - Never in good shape and nearly unrecognizable from its 18-hole original design, the 9 holes of Annapolis Roads GC were a reminder of how extraordinary early golf design could be. Template holes on steroids.

I immediately thought of Annapolis Roads. Only played it about 10 times, but it made a big impression on me.

I also dearly miss Rogell in Detroit. I played there a ton. Detroit News used to run a great hole in one day there every year.

I can’t think of a modern course I miss.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2023, 07:33:33 AM »
I lived in Annapolis for 33 years. Annapolis Roads had a small but VERY loyal group of players. Until it closed there was talk of restoring it to its former glory. The community had a chance to buy it but didn't.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2023, 10:38:04 AM »
I lived in Annapolis for 33 years. Annapolis Roads had a small but VERY loyal group of players. Until it closed there was talk of restoring it to its former glory. The community had a chance to buy it but didn't.
I wasn't aware of that. What a mistake. With the success of 9-hole courses like Sweetens Cove and the location of ARGC, a restored version would have been a winner for the community. Even with sandless bunkers and tiny, mown circles on huge greens, the course was a marvel.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2023, 10:59:39 AM »
I lived in Annapolis for 33 years. Annapolis Roads had a small but VERY loyal group of players. Until it closed there was talk of restoring it to its former glory. The community had a chance to buy it but didn't.


Was this around 1990?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

DFarron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2023, 03:54:53 PM »
Older -Redford (Detroit) Golf Course-A great old style course designed by Donald Ross, I played there when I started golfing and knew nothing about course design. Thinking back it had many features cool features  like #1 & 14 sharing a giant mowed fairway .
The City of Detroit kept losing money on it (there’s a whole story in itself) then a big church bought it and last I heard it was a vacant field.



Modern -Aetna Springs. Used to drive an hour to throw my back across my shoulder in the peace and quiet of this out of the way place. It was a fun, challenging place and rarely was there another group there. Maybe that’s why they are NLE.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2023, 04:32:09 PM »
I lived in Annapolis for 33 years. Annapolis Roads had a small but VERY loyal group of players. Until it closed there was talk of restoring it to its former glory. The community had a chance to buy it but didn't.


Was this around 1990?


Ciao


That time frame seems correct, but I don't even remember the year it closed.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2023, 04:32:44 PM »
I lived in Annapolis for 33 years. Annapolis Roads had a small but VERY loyal group of players. Until it closed there was talk of restoring it to its former glory. The community had a chance to buy it but didn't.


Was this around 1990?


Ciao


That time frame seems correct, but I don't even remember the year it closed. I don't think the closing even made the local paper.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2023, 04:55:04 PM »
Older -Redford (Detroit) Golf Course-A great old style course designed by Donald Ross, I played there when I started golfing and knew nothing about course design. Thinking back it had many features cool features  like #1 & 14 sharing a giant mowed fairway .
The City of Detroit kept losing money on it (there’s a whole story in itself) then a big church bought it and last I heard it was a vacant field.



Modern -Aetna Springs. Used to drive an hour to throw my back across my shoulder in the peace and quiet of this out of the way place. It was a fun, challenging place and rarely was there another group there. Maybe that’s why they are NLE.

Redford CC is the course which later became Rogell when the Phoenix Club built a new course well outside Detroit…Franklin Hills. The city took the course over and eventually renamed it after Billy Rogell, a former shortstop for the Tigers and long time Detroit Councilman.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2023, 05:44:33 PM »
I wouldn't say I played it regularly (maybe 3 times), but among moderns in my home state of Michigan, I really miss Tom Doak's Black Forest. Yes it was a very difficult course and a few of the greens were overdone, but it was probably the best of the 'deep woods adventure' northern Michigan courses--there were a lot of really beautiful and interesting holes. I think I liked it more than High Pointe.

But the one I miss the most, even though it was nowhere near as good, was an old course (probably built around 1920) in southeast Michigan called Bogie Lake. ...



Another vote for Black Forest at Wilderness Valley, was about 15 min from our Blue Lake cabin and played it in summers every year while it was open and once after it was "closed" sneaking on from the Valley Course. Remember at end of construction we talked to someone on a dozer trying to clear the driving range one day...  It was the home of unfinished business till the end, no matter how well I played or not..., walked it once, which was enough.   
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2023, 03:58:25 PM »
An in-betweener would be the 9-holer that was built adjacent to Marina Del Rey, and on which I played a lot of my high school team practice rounds and matches.
Unless you mean Westchester, I don't know of this course.Where was it and when did this disappear? I've looked at historic aerials back to 1952 and don't see one.


Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2023, 05:47:47 PM »
Waterwood National is a course I’ve played that I feel is a loss.
I’d consider it a “new” nle




Peter Gannon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2023, 05:51:29 PM »
1. Have to second Tallgrass GC in Shoreham, NY.  Big loss.


2. (old?) My first job was at Kings Crossing Country Club in Corpus Christi, Texas.  This is late 80s to early 90s.  My father worked there, so I could work the bag room, barn, and range from 14-16 yrs old.  Didn't realize what was so unique about it at the time, but it was rolling land, and links like features.  Weird contours, and blind shot features.  VERY unusual for Texas.  Years later I found out it was Bill Coore's second solo design, and the owner of Kings Crossing was the person who introduced Coore to Ben Crenshaw.  I believe that story is correct.  It still sits there overgrown in a residential community.   


I hope that story is true.  One of the better memories of my time in Texas.  Rockport CC (Coore's first solo design) still exists and is a really fun gem.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 05:53:20 PM by Peter Gannon »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2023, 07:30:48 PM »
Here is an older thread about courses in California that have closed:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=63867.0   


There have been a lot of them!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 07:35:18 PM by David_Tepper »

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2023, 10:03:27 PM »
An in-betweener would be the 9-holer that was built adjacent to Marina Del Rey, and on which I played a lot of my high school team practice rounds and matches.
Unless you mean Westchester, I don't know of this course.Where was it and when did this disappear? I've looked at historic aerials back to 1952 and don't see one.


Penmar? (Which is still open.)
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

David Cronan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2023, 10:17:00 AM »

Old- Crystal Golf Course. Crystal, MI (Little Crystal Lake) Let me first state that this course had zero architectural merit. A 9 hole, par 33 executive course located on an old farm. There was, maybe, a foot of elevation change on the entire property. The most interesting hole was the par 3 7th, which was about 160 yards with a gigantic oak tree directly in front of the tee, leaving the player the option of either attempting to hit a sand wedge over the tree (before lob wedges) and the, if successful, keep that club handy because it will be used on the approach shot. Or hooding a mid iron around said oak in hopes of hitting a 40 yard hook where, if successful, would inevitably end up in a barren bunker fronting the green. Or using ones putter off the tee. The conditioning was "rough", with greens cut slightly lower than standard shag carpeting, which was popular in the day. It also had a very short par 3 course and a putt putt course, whose conditions were somehow even worse than the executive course.


So why is this course my choice? Simple. My parents owned a cottage on the lake and we spent many summer weekends there. The course was about 3/4 of mile from our place, which was just short enough for a 6 year old and his brothers and cousins to walk. $2 allowed us to play all day and have a hot dog, chips and a Town Club Pop in a 700 sf cinder block clubhouse. It's the place where a 6 year old was introduced and fell in love with the game. It's also the last course my father and I played together.


A family owned the course and after the patriarch died, he left his two sons as equal partners. After a few years, one of the brothers wanted to cash in on this piece of land and it was put on the market......for $2,000,000. They only way it could be worth that much is if oil was found on the property. It fell into a state of disrepair until a couple years ago, when one of the "lake" families bought the clubhouse and turned it into a wedding reception facility.

New- High Pointe. I've not followed the progress of the "new" High Pointe, and I'm sure that if I ever get back up that way, it most certainly will not disappoint, but boy, I LOVED the old High Pointe. The lake cottage I had was only about a 20 minute drive and I started playing there 30 years ago. In fact, I played there on the day of my wedding. Before playing my 1st round at High Pointe, I played in both Ireland and Scotland, but never really understood the brilliance and nuances of those courses. Slowly, by repeated plays on High Pointe, it afforded me the opportunity to notice certain details and multiple strategies that were presented on each hole. Which led me to compare to other courses. Which led me to purchasing a copy of The Confidential Guide in HP's clubhouse, which really opened by eyes and curiosity. It's the place where I fell in love with GCA.

Jeff Kallberg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2023, 10:33:54 AM »
An in-betweener would be the 9-holer that was built adjacent to Marina Del Rey, and on which I played a lot of my high school team practice rounds and matches.
Unless you mean Westchester, I don't know of this course.Where was it and when did this disappear? I've looked at historic aerials back to 1952 and don't see one.


Definitely not Penmar, on which my golf team (Venice High) also practiced.


The Marina Del Rey course was there circa 1968-1970 (not sure how long after, but probably not too long).  I've searched high and low for aerial photos (or any other kind of the photo) that would show the course, and have come up empty-handed.  To a high-school public golfer in the late 60s, the course was notable for two things:  1) pretty good conditions (at least as compared to Penmar, which I know is not saying much), and 2) the presence of an artificial water hazard (like the "East Coast" courses had that we saw on TV).  Given the demand for residential property and the attendant land values, it was clearly not going to be there a long time.


Looking at a map, I think the course was located just to the east of Lincoln Blvd, and somewhere between Washington Blvd and Ballona Creek.


Penmar? (Which is still open.)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 10:37:20 AM by Jeff Kallberg »

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2023, 11:21:18 AM »
This is one of those GCA threads which reminds you of the real differences between the North American and British golf experience, and the fact that almost all of the NLE courses in the UK that people seem to be nostalgic about disappeared between 1939 and 1960 (e.g. Bramshot, Addington New, Royal IoW Bembridge, the Merionethshire at Fairbourne). I reckon I have played over 200 courses in the British Isles ( a tiny number compared to some GCA posters) and I can't think of a single one that is no longer with us. Of course there have been casualties (one early 20th-century club in Sheffield disappeared only yesterday) but I would guess that the general level of 'churn' on this side of the pond is relatively (much) lower? Those professionally involved in GCA will have a much better idea than me.

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2023, 11:40:53 AM »
My home course while in Korea is NLE.  It was a pretty weird set up as it was controlled by the US military but not at all near a US military base/post.  While I was there the growth around the course was insane.  The course was exchanged with the Korean government and I'm sure is now mid rise apartments.  A new course was built by RTJ Jr. at Camp Humphries.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59836.msg1411969.html#msg1411969

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2023, 11:55:15 AM »
My home course while in Korea is NLE.  It was a pretty weird set up as it was controlled by the US military but not at all near a US military base/post.  While I was there the growth around the course was insane.  The course was exchanged with the Korean government and I'm sure is now mid rise apartments.  A new course was built by RTJ Jr. at Camp Humphries.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59836.msg1411969.html#msg1411969


At first I thought you were talking about the former course at Youngsan Army Garrison - which was literally right in the middle of Seoul.  I wouldn’t put it on my list of NLEs that I miss, but I did play Youngsan in 1986.


But having followed your link, I was not aware a course was constructed near Camp Humphreys.


March has changed in S. korea since I was based there in 1986. Lol.




Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: your favorite two (one modern, one old) NLEs you regularly played
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2023, 12:09:53 PM »
An in-betweener would be the 9-holer that was built adjacent to Marina Del Rey, and on which I played a lot of my high school team practice rounds and matches.
Unless you mean Westchester, I don't know of this course.Where was it and when did this disappear? I've looked at historic aerials back to 1952 and don't see one.



Definitely not Penmar, on which my golf team (Venice High) also practiced.


The Marina Del Rey course was there circa 1968-1970 (not sure how long after, but probably not too long).  I've searched high and low for aerial photos (or any other kind of the photo) that would show the course, and have come up empty-handed.  To a high-school public golfer in the late 60s, the course was notable for two things:  1) pretty good conditions (at least as compared to Penmar, which I know is not saying much), and 2) the presence of an artificial water hazard (like the "East Coast" courses had that we saw on TV).  Given the demand for residential property and the attendant land values, it was clearly not going to be there a long time.


Looking at a map, I think the course was located just to the east of Lincoln Blvd, and somewhere between Washington Blvd and Ballona Creek.


Penmar? (Which is still open.)



I found it. A Google search for "marina del rey golf course 1969" led me to some old copies of a publication called The Dinghy, one of which contained this ad:


Screenshot_20231203_085608_Drive~2 by Mark, on Flickr
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z