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Matt_Ward

What's new in AZ ???
« on: December 08, 2003, 02:11:09 AM »
I've been in SoCal and AZ the last couple of days and will be in Scottsdale for the balance of the week. A few things to mention.

1). Whisper Rock is breaking ground for a second 18 -- this one to be designed by Tom Fazio. From the people I spoke to the site is no less in quality than what one finds with the original 18. I loved the first 18 and believe it's one of the 3-4 best you can play in the state -- superb green sites and plenty of unique holes. The time frame for opening the second 18 is likely to be sometime in '05. Be very interesting to see how the sequel matches up to the original.

2). The Galley / South Course (Marana) has opened there second 18 -- also designed by John Fought. I played it the other day and although the course accentuates the "user-friendly" philosophy in providing a good share of fairway the intricacy of the routing and the quality of the holes is really a good bit less than what you find with the original 18 (North) IMHO. Unfortunately, the layout starts with 7 holes that go in the same direction (downhill slightly) and then you must return by going back uphill. Not all the holes are pedestrian but the clever touches Fought gave to the first course (the unique shapes and contours on the greens and bunker dimensions and placements) are lacking with the sequel. It's certainly helps the courses are located in such a gorgeous setting but the sequel lacks the bite and sizzle of the first.

3). I'm at The Outlaw (Desert Mountain's 6th Course) and it will be interesting to see how Jack Nicklaus has differentiated this layout from the others. I've been told it's very walkable and really features more of a "links" flow. I wonder how much "links" can be in the desert?

4). I'll also be venturing to Apache Stronghold and seeing how things are proceeding. I played the course awhile back and it will be fun to return.

What's amazing about AZ golf is that the real big push is now moving towards the western portion of Phoenix -- out by Peoria (where Quintero is located) and also near Estrella Mountain.

P.S. There's also some push for golf south of Tucson closer to the Mexican border. The land in that part of the state is certainly enticing.


Don_Mahaffey

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2003, 08:10:22 AM »
Matt,
your right about the land south of Tucson. Problem is, there are already plenty of golf courses and until a lot more baby boomers move in I don't see a lot of development happening. If you want to see absolutly perfect land for golf, head south and east of Tucson to Sonoita. High desert (4,000) grassland with sandy loam soil. Beautiful place and close enough (40 miles) to Tucson to someday support a special golf course.

Say hello to Ron for me when at AS.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2003, 09:16:23 AM »
Matt
West of Phoenix, there will be 3 new courses opening soon:
Raven at Verrado(Fought/Lehman) near Buckeye. This will be a major new development area with more golf courses planned.
Trilogy at Vistancia(Panks) near Peoria. This is another major new development area near Lake Pleasant area off Carefree Highway. Shea Homes has branded the Trilogy name for its 55+ communities. See Skins Game course- Trilogy at LaQuinta.
CorteBella(Nash) near Sun City Grand. This will eventually be private until memberships are sold to residents. 1200 55+ houses are planned.This is a Del Webb community.Course will be managed by Troon Golf.

The second course at Quintero(Norman) hasn't started construction yet, to my knowledge.

Estrella Mountain Ranch(Nicklaus II) south of The Wigwam opened a few years ago to good reviews. There are other new courses in this area such as Coldwater(Richardson) in Avondale.Ron Whitten did a review of this course at GD.

I'm looking forward to your review of Outlaw.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 09:50:58 AM by acer2x »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2003, 10:22:38 AM »
Supposedly Ken Kavanaugh has done a renovation of his own 6-year-old design at Longbow in Mesa.  Something like 300 yards have been added (to put it over 7000), and other work was done (bunkering, etc.) that only the ad in Links gave me - can't remember the exact details.

Matt_Ward

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2003, 01:06:12 PM »
acer2x (Steve):

I only hope that what Fought and Lehman do in Buckeye is similar to the original vision for the first 18 at The Gallery. I hope they don't start to become soooooooooo "player-friendly" that little real interesting stuff is created. The second 18 at The Gallery makes me wonder if Fought is heading down the path of least resistance.

How good is the land for the new Panks course? Peoria seems to be hopping for golf development -- and the land is quite good although I personally believe Quintero (Founders) by Rees Jones is just not as goooooood as some are wont to believe. Unfortunately, too many of the holres at Quintero are formulistic patterns seen at too many of his other designs. I'd much rather play Cascata if push comes to shoove.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2003, 01:39:32 PM »

I personally believe Quintero (Founders) by Rees Jones is just not as goooooood as some are want to believe. Unfortunately, too many of the holes at Quintero are formulistic patterns seen at too many of his other designs. I'd much rather play Cascata if push comes to shoove.

Picking between these 2 is like picking the lesser of 2 evils.  I just can't see much positive to say about Casacata except about the condition and the service.  I can't think of one hole that is all world.  
Quintero is fun, the front nine better than the back except all the par 3's are the same distance.  Quintero is somewhat monotonous.

Matt you may want to check out the Faldo course at the Marriott.  I heard (haven't played it) that Faldo did a good job.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2003, 01:49:28 PM »
From the images I have seen, Verrado looks like it will be a compelling golf course--the stuff most of us like here, where Natural surroundings are the influence ON, not just around the golf course.

Matt, I too have heard the same things about Quintero, only not in nearly as nice as your words.

I had a chance to play some not all of Coldwater (it was 112 freekin' degrees outside and would rather just look at it in those temperatures! I'm not as young as I used to be!) Forrest has CREATED a unqiue golf course here, and I'mnot saying that just because I assisted him, because I was critical to him on a few things about the course. Still it remains one of the more interesting pallates for a golf course that I have seen where it was a flat cotten field, and where he built some pretty fun golf holes. Mind you that there are a large majority of them that aren't minus sand hazards which makes it even more interesting because the holes are still very strategic. I also think it might be one of the three best deals in town affordably.

I've said it once if I have not said it a million times-the world needs about 200 more of these types of courses. Fun, Enjoyable, yet still challenging and affordable to build.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2003, 02:12:11 PM »
Tommy
Re: Coldwater from Ron Whitten's review at GD
"So what sort of golf architect is Forrest Richardson? Well, he took a lousy site, gave it his best and made it worth our while to play the course. And threw in a few chuckles in the bargain. You can't ask much more than that.

I'm expecting good things from Forrest Richardson in the future. His is already the biggest name in golf course architecture."

Matt
Re:Raven at Verrado
I'm not sure if this course will be "core" golf or not. Take a look at the website: www.verrado.com
I'm sure this will a better course to play, and I intend to do so in the spring, before the houses are built. I believe it will be another "upscale daily fee."

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2003, 02:21:42 PM »
Verrado's 11th, 6th & 2nd holes during grow-in.


« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 02:37:56 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2003, 02:49:19 PM »
I'm expecting good things from Forrest Richardson in the future. His is already the biggest name in golf course architecture."

The biggest name in golf course architecture?   Should this be submitted for funniest threads?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2003, 03:25:51 PM »
Joel, The reference is to Forrest having the longest spelled name of golf course architects.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2003, 06:22:45 PM »
Eye Above Verrado................
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 06:25:00 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Matt_Ward

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2003, 08:51:27 PM »
I had the opportunity to play the new addition to Desert Mountain -- the facility's sixth course -- called Outlaw. As with the rest of the other courses Outlaw is the design creation of Jack Nicklaus.

Before going further on the course a few background details. Outlaw is not within the same complex of courses at DM. The course is two miles from the entrance to Mirabel and on the same side of Cave Creek Road.

Outlaw is situated on 183 acres of solid rolling land that provides a stunning landscape for both on-and-off-course visual imagery. You can easily see Four Peaks, the Tonto National Forest and Superstition Mountains at nearly all spots when playing.

There are 126 bunkers and they are all appropriately positioned. The course is also located at roughly 3,400" above sea level and if one should play in the winter months you can expect the temperatures to be no less than 5-10 degrees cooler than in downtown Phoenix because of the elevation.

The course is surrounded on three sides by Federal land and one of the real joys at Outlaw is the following:

1). You can walk the course at all times
2). There is NO HOUSING to intrude when you play
Few desert courses can boast such a combination!

One of the neat things I have experienced when visiting Desert Mountain is to see how the whole enterprise has evolved since its inception from the late 80's. The initial roster of courses imposed a more hardcore desert setting in which offline shots were treated in a very harsh manner. Although I am a major fan of Chirichua and still admire Geronimo even though they aborted the former 13th and 14th holes.

Clearly, the Nicklaus philosophy has evolved over the course of time and one can see the results very clearly at a number of courses at DM -- most notably at Outlaw.

A few background facts on the course ...

7,107 yards from the tips (72.8 CR & 140 SL)
6,509 yards from the middle (69.5 CR & 131 SL)

So -- how good is the course?

In my mind -- Nicklaus has created a very successful course that allows all types of players to play without making the experience a penal one. Jack has created a design that accentuates the "thinking" aspect and relies less on the player's ability to hit it consistently straight at ALL COSTS or face the music with the surrounding desert.

Too many times I have grown weary in hearing how architect's are intent on creating "playable" designs. Uusually, that means such designs are sooooooo stripped down to be absolutely a sleep-a-thon for anyone who has talent in playing this crazy game. One of the trends I see in desert golf -- particularly in the greater Phoenix area -- is to create such "playable" designs. Many don't work well -- a good example being Legend Trail -- Prospector at Superstition Mountain is another. They simply are lacking in any creative manner to keep your interest. Outlaw succeeds in this area in a big way. In many ways Outlaw has carried forward with what one sees in such top shelf "playable" courses such as Rustic Canyon in Moorpark, CA.

Jack has provided plenty of room for players to drive the ball and best of all the native desert scrub has been cleaned up to provide a bit of fairness. You may not have a clean shot to reach the green from the rough areas but you will likely find your ball and still be able to advance it to the target area.

The key to Outlaw is understanding how Jack shaped and contoured the greens. Take for example the 1st hole. It's only 410 yards from the tips and you have plenty of area in the fairway. It's not the drive that's daunting but the approach. Here Jack has elevated the green slightly and the putting surface is angled from left to right with a solitary bunker standing guard just in the right front. The green is also bolstered by the fact that Jack has shaped the edges to fall off dramatically. If you get a bit too frisky with your approach you will simply run even further from the hole. This design scheme happens at a number of holes at Outlaw. The par-5 2nd is 552 yards and after hitting a big tee shot I had no more than 225 yards to the flag. I hit a 5-iron but cam up a bit short -- the result? The ball rolled back a major incline that guards the front entrance to the green. Very cool indeed!

This idea of shaping the greens was something I did not see at the new 18 at The Gallery even though designer John Fought mentioned it was a major element in that design.

Jack has also featured a solid array of different holes at Outlaw -- the best being the short-to-mid length variety. Give a good example -- the 10th is no more than 338 yards but it's tough as nails because the green design works magnificiently. Here Jack has an angled green with a DEEP fronting bunker. The green is perched above the fairway and is literally as wide as a one-lane highway. You must hit the SOFTEST approach possible because anything with pace will simply go over. And going over is a quick descend into hell as you run even further from the target. What a delicious hole!

Outlaw shows me how Nicklaus has come full circle in bringing forward a design that can make golf playable and enjoyable for all types of players. There's plenty of strategy on a number of holes and you must work the ball off the tee to get to the favored positions. Distance is rewarded but it won't conquer all the holes easily.

Jack has also included two double-greens at the course (#3 & #15 as well as #6 & #8) and they do fit the layout quite well.

Outlaw demonstrates a "fun" course without dumbing down the product as so many are wont to do. Kudos to Nicklaus. Outlaw is a layout other designers seeking "playability" should check out and try to emulate IMHO.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2003, 09:00:10 PM »
Matt

Thanks for the review. Sounds like Nicklaus has produced a winner.The other  non real estate course in the area is the newly opened TheGolf Club Scottsdale(Moorish/Bailey) down the road from Troon North towards Tonto Verde. Will you play there?
Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2003, 09:05:11 PM »
acer2x (Steve):

No, I wish I had the time -- do you have any details you can share? I may visit just to tour if time allows.

I'll be at Estancia tomorrow -- then Apache Stronghold for Wednesday. I may play Thursday at Raven at South Mountain with a few media people who are also in town.

FYI: Desert Mountain has plenty of real estate, as you know full well -- just none at Outlaw and that's a major plus when playing the layout -- ditto the walking aspect that is not only permitted but encouraged.


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2003, 09:11:45 PM »
Matt:

Will be visiting in February.  Look forward to reporting back what I found out on the visit!!! ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2003, 09:25:54 PM »
Matt(and others)
Re: TheGolf Club Scottsdale

From chipshot.com

"Membership in The Golf Club Scottsdale is limited to 265, and the $250,000 ticket to join allows exclusive use of a magnificent new golf course in North Scottsdale, Arizona, designed by world renowned golf course architect Jay Morrish and local course designer Dick Bailey. Designed as a club for golf purists, the new course incorporates rugged Sonoran desert outcroppings and natural washes that stretch through the 290 acres of open terrain, free of residential trappings. In addition to the 18-hole course, the facility also features a double-ended practice area with multiple targets, and immense short game area. According to developer Mark Isakson, The Golf Club Scottsdale will feel like a traditional golf course with miles of uncluttered, unspoiled and unobstructed views. Morrish regards the new layout as “one of the finest in his portfolio.” Morrish and Bailey have worked together on over 100 golf course projects, including Arizona’s Troon North Golf Club, Forest Highlands and Stone Canyon Golf Club. For membership information to The Golf Club Scottsdale, call (480)443-8868 or visit www.thegolfclubscottsdale.com. "

Unfortunately, the website isn't operational, or I just couldn't get in.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2003, 11:14:06 PM »
Steve or anyone else for that matter:

Is the GC Scottsdale open as of yet?

Thanks ...

matt

Thomas_Brown

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2003, 01:43:41 AM »
Matt - Did you hear any grumblings on the lawsuit filed by some of the members of Desert Mountain on the alleged oversubscription?

Tom

Matt_Ward

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2003, 11:42:02 AM »
Thomas:

I didn't hear anything -- though I believe the total membership at DM is slightly beyond 2,500.

Nonetheless, Outlaw is a superb addition and should be studied carefully by those who want to build a "playable" but "challenging" design.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2003, 11:45:59 AM »
Matt,

Where would you put Outlaw on your list of top courses in the state?

Matt_Ward

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2003, 12:12:07 PM »
Scott:

Outlaw is a well done "playable" but yet "challenging" course for all types of players. Few desert courses can accomplish that sort of linkage.

Outlaw doesn't follow the motif of Desert Forest or the others that have gained fame / stature / infamy because they unduly penalize driving with constant forays into the native desert areas. This can be quite taxing and annoying when done to overdose levels.

Curiously, if one were to simply look at Outlaw from just the CR and SL many people might simply pass on it. I know when I glanced at the card before playing I wondered just that. Give you a good example -- Nicklaus did the Apache at DM and it simply is so utterly lacking in the combination of playability and challenge. The Nicklaus team has certainly come a good ways since then.

I thoroughly loved the course but just realize this -- the competitive landscape in AZ is very good -- between desert and ponderose pine layouts. Clearly, many people may not find AZ to their liking because of what I said at the outset of this post.

Outlaw is clearly an evolution in the design thinking of Jack Nicklaus and the site (both on-and-off) is stunning and the holes possess a solid array of options for all types of players.

Let me give it some thought as to where Outlaw stands -- I'm at Estancia today and Apache Stronghold tomorrow. I will say this -- anyone coming to Scottsdale should see if they can play Outlaw -- the layout is indeed one that creates a dynamic presentation and is a model for others to follow in linking "playability" and "challenge" together.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2003, 05:36:14 PM »
Re: The Gallery South(Fought)

Matt Ward recently played here and posted some comments above. The original Gallery course is noted for its bunkering. I remember someone referring to it as "the Winged Foot of the desert." A pic is in the article.
From today's Tucson Citizen with pics:
www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=pro&story_id=120903d4_gallerysouth


Dove Mountain marvel

New Gallery South puts focus on the short game

JACK RICKARD
Tucson Citizen

 

"The par-4 fourth hole at Gallery South uses a huge lake to force the player to choose how much to "bite off" on the tee shot.  
Golf course architect John Fought has long had a deep appreciation and admiration for the work of legendary course designer Donald Ross, who laid out 413 courses back in the 1910s and 1920s.
One reason is that Fought captured the 1977 U.S. Amateur title on a Ross course, Aronimink Golf Club near Philadelphia. Fought also has been hired to restore several Ross-designed courses.

When he was hired to design the Gallery South Course, Fought and owner John MacMillan were in agreement. Fought would incorporate the sloping greens that were a trademark of Ross designs.

MacMillan even took Fought, golf course superintendent Paul Elwood, project manager Wade Dunagan and director of golf Paul Nolen to Pinehurst, N.C., to view and play some of Ross' best works, in particular Pinehurst No. 2.

The Gallery South course opened two weeks ago, a challenging par-72 layout across Dove Mountain Boulevard from the North Course, which opened in 1998.

"The greens are turtle-back greens. That's how they describe them at Pinehurst No. 2," Fought said. "They are slightly elevated and built into the existing terrain. They feature edges that softly roll off and little subtle movements and hole locations that are distinct.

"The course brings chipping and shot-making back into the game. You don't always have to have deep rough around the greens. The higher-handicap player is delighted he's not in the sand, deep rough, water or getting a penalty stroke. He can chip it back onto the green without much effort."

Fought gives the player plenty of room off the tee, often as much as 70 yards wide. He did not incorporate any of the deep fairway bunkers that are the dominating factor on the North Course, which he designed with PGA Tour standout Tom Lehman. And there are no 700-yard par-5s. The North's No. 9 measures 727 yards from the back tees.

 
 
The course plays differently from any of the five tees. The championship markers have a more difficult driving angle.

For those who want to play just nine holes, they can do so by playing the first four, then going to the second of two greens at the par-3 fifth hole and finishing up on 15 through 18.

"I've never been able to accomplish this before on any of my designs," Fought said.

"They built the golf course to accommodate my game," MacMillan, an 18-handicapper, said with a smile. He obviously doesn't go back much farther than the verde (6,312 yards) tees. From the tips it's 7,316 yards with a rating of 73.4 and a slope of 133.

The best hole on the course? That's difficult. There isn't one "signature" hole that stands out.

Perhaps the best could be the par-4 fourth, on which one must decide how much to "bite off" on the tee shot over a huge lake. Or it could be the par-5 10th that has a natural wash bisecting the fairway. One has to choose which way to go.

The Gallery Golf Club is a privately owned, nonequity club. Cost of a membership is $65,000, with monthly dues of $395. MacMillan said there will eventually be 390 members per golf course."

Steve








"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2003, 08:05:59 PM »
Steve:

The desire by Fought and the key principals at The Gallery was to emulate Pinehurst #2. It is a major stretch to say that the new South Course is akin to #2.

The layout is purely functional to draw much of a comparison to its smartly designed North Course. Let me also mention that the layout features the first seven holes going in the same direction (downhill) before the return uphill back to the clubhouse. There are a few holes of note -- the par-4 4th is a good one but the new South Course is clearly not of the same caliber as its original layout.

P.S. Anyone linking Winged Foot to The Gallery must be drinking some heavy duty alcohol.  ;D

Thomas_Brown

Re:What's new in AZ ???
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2003, 12:06:54 AM »
Hi Matt - Let us know of your round at Apache tomorrow.
I was there last month(ie. my controversial post).
Watch out for the pack of wild boar on #13 I saw.

Is the course in decent condition?
Did you make eagle on #6?

I bet it will be cold(even for a Jersey guy).

Tom