Golf Design Boot Camp ?

[Charlie Goerges]

Yes, in fact at least one of the teachers at the upcoming boot camp was one of our judges, to say nothing of how well my own design associate has fared in the years since!

[Lyne Morrison]

'They (the ASGCA) exist for the good of the game, not for the good of the members. From what I have seen, their intentions are very open and very positive.'


Mark Fine's comment got me thinking about my interactions with ASGCA members, which have been consistently welcomed, positive and rewarding for many years. With this in mind, sharing the following short story seems fitting.

Initially, as a student, I contacted ASGCA members seeking information for my Landscape Architecture thesis in golf course design. This was before the internet and email, and Rees Jones's office responded and sent material to me - in Australia.

Later, writing to Robin Nelson ASGCA led to a position as a young designer in his office. I moved countries to grasp that opportunity. At the time, the only other females in the profession were ASGCA members Alice Dye and Jan Bel Jan. Robin would chat with me about the work they were doing to improve course setup for women. That struck a chord.

Over the years, interaction, support and materials from Alice Dye, Jan Bel Jan, Jeff Brauer, Forrest Richardson, Steve Forrest, Andy Staples, Chris Cochran and Bill Coore have influenced my understanding and approach to forward tees. Equally, Arthur Little has been very generous.

Here in Australia, the average female golfer is age 65 and holds a 31 handicap. Most courses for women stretch out for 5300 metres or so - that's 5800 yards! It's often the case that holes can never be reached in regulation, even Par 3's.

This yardage overlooks the influence of course setup on the continued participation of many female players - which, perhaps unsurprisingly, sits at 19%. And, while introductory initiatives are doing well, improved course setup is critical to sustaining female involvement in the long term.

Fixed thinking has dictated that change is slow here, so it's pleasing to share that one of my clients recently became the first traditional club in Australia to embrace the construction of professionally designed forward tees across all 18 holes. With females and juniors largely absent from tee sheets and determined to turn things around, they look forward to developing a more diverse and sustainable club environment.

The reason for sharing this story is the direct link to the ASGCA members who, for many years, generously responded to professional queries, supported a female in a non-traditional field and consistently encouraged my interest in developing a more enjoyable game for the slow swing speed player. I can add that other ASGCA members have been equally willing to respond to random emails with technical queries.

Geographically, I am far removed from the United States. However, the work I am doing to effect change and improve course set up for women and seniors in Australia is primarily due to the influence of these ASGCA members supporting the good of the game.

I remain especially grateful for this.

Lyne

[Bruce Katona]

Professor Jeff Brauer:

Any update on how many have signed up and are scheduled to take/complete the course?  Any chance you could share the final exam with the masses here to see the question and potential design solutions/


BK

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lyne,


I'm glad that you have had good experiences with ASGCA, but not surprised.  Sports and Leisure Research, among others, notes that we must be the most cooperative and willing to share knowledge of any group they have worked with.  And, the Jones clan were among the first that I experienced that with, including an RTJ (signed, probably written by Roger Rulewhich) letter response to me when I was just 14.  Killian and Nugent had me into their office around the same time to show me what it was like.  And I still take calls from members and non-members alike asking for some kind of specific help based on experience, which, if I don't know, forward to other members to answer.  I had one this morning on the "standard" tonnage rating for cart path bridges.  I don't think it is so prevalent that "Brauering" is the golf course design equivalent of Googling, but we try.


Bruce,


I am not running that enrollment program, but have fielded a few of the inquiries to date.  They fall into the Xmas Experience Present category......or the "I want to but have to ask my wife," and/or "I must pay Xmas bills first" responses.  No problem, and it is open enrollment for a while.


Similarly, while I did participate in what are are calling the school solution, we aren't sharing that so students can come up with their own.  I suspect the results will be made public after the camp in some way.

[Bruce Katona]

Thank you Jeff.


BK

[Peter Bowman]

I like where the money is going:

The chief beneficiary is the Clearview Legacy Foundation, whose mission is to preserve the legacy and facilities at Clearview Golf Club, in Ohio, the only course in the country built, owned and operated by an African-American.

[/size]If you're betting I'd be interested in the course, you'd be correct, but that's where it ends.An attendee would be a fool to think any 4 day crash course could grant a legitimate credential in the field of GCA.  For some busy folks, 4-days to learn and experience a deeper understanding of the breadth of the job may be an efficient (albeit expensive) way to get their feet wet and get their hands dirty to see if it's anything they'd want to pursue further.I have been in touch with a couple local GCAs who say they'd be happy to have me shadow on the job from time to time.  Unfortunately, time is currently my limiting asset, but that will change as years roll forward. A course like this could make me more useful to them and I could learn quicker by putting theory into experience. I'll be there to learn, work, and contribute in exchange for the generosity of their time.Many of golf's greatest GCAs had careers elsewhere first.  Let's look at a few...Pete Dye- Insurance salesman.  I think it's great he let you work on his projects for 4 years before you went out on your own.Alister Mackenzie- physicianSeth Raynor- engineerRTJ Sr- engineering student and club proTom Simpon- lawyerHenry Colt- lawyerAW Tillinghast- journalistBill Coore- GC Super (like my dad)Then there are those who were virtual mega millionaires and pursued architecture:CB MacDonaldHenry FownesGeorge CrumpI dont believe there's a dentist on that list yet...Hopes of becoming a GCA aside, a boot camp like this can benefit my home course, perhaps with a better understanding of what NOT to do and why.  Some members of Hooper's Greens Committee have been pushing for removal of some of Stiles' original bunkers on 5 and 7, and the newer fairway bunkers on 9.  They successfully overruled my vote 2 years ago in removing one on 6. They don't appear interested in my suggestion to hire a consulting architect first.  It has been difficult to conclude whether this is because they assume it is cost prohibitive, or they simply don't want the expert advice.  Will the Committee heed the cautious suggestions of a 4-day architecture course "graduate" instead?  Doubtful, but you never know.I agree the price tag is a deal breaker for many.  Does it buy the same experience an intern working for peanuts will receive?  Of course not.   Those are two different animals, but it's a taste.



Agreed.  I had missed that when I first made the post.  I was wondering where all the $ was going.  Maybe I should do a seminar next year and give all the proceeds to charity?


If indeed the participants all look at it like a baseball fantasy camp, no problems here.  I doubt that will happen, though.  I'm betting it's our dentist from Hooper and other guys who will try to use it as a credential, like I've seen some people use the week-long Harvard course . . . and if that's what happens, I'm surprised ASGCA is giving people the credential.


Honestly, though, my main take is that the seminar is aimed at poseurs rather than actual students.  I still remember that, as much help as I got in my youth from everyone else in the greater world of golf, the ASGCA were the outliers . . . they were no help at all, not encouraging in the slightest.  [Not that that should reflect on current members.]  That's the real reason I never wanted to join.  I'd rather put my money toward our internships.
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[Peter Bowman]

no idea why the formatting above is so poor. I certainly didnt write it jammed up like that

[Jeff Schley]

Wanted to see how the enrollment has been.  Did this program fill up the 16 slots for September?

[Pierre_C]

I wouldn't be surprise if there is a waitlist for the program. As of Jan. 2024, there are about 22.7M millionaires in America. Of the 22.7M, there should be some number who are avid golfers, of 22.7M there are X individuals who are willing to spend $20K on a 4 day program (to some its a vacation) to learn more about GCA.

[Phil Young]

This isn't a new idea. Slightly more than 100 years go, on February 20, 1924, the headline P. C. Pulver's column announced: "Tillinghast Tells of Proposed Institute of Golf Architecture.
      The article that followed stated: "In this advanced age the game embraces various departments never dreamed of in the old days. The latest on tap has been planned by that well known links architect, A. W. Tillinghast, who upon dropping into the office recently, outlined the projected innovation which is none other than to form what will be known as the Tillinghast Institute of Golf Course Architecture.
      "With regard to the proposed school the idea is that it could be made of great benefit to the many who have a leaning in that direction. Amateurs, such as chairmen of the green committees, after studying that phase, could, so it is inferred, enter upon their duties with a far greater understanding of what was required.
      "According to Tillinghast, those taking up the study would not only be benefited by a series of lectures, but would also be given an opportunity to actually try their hand at course architecture. The proposed plan will provide for the visits by the “students” to certain tracts of land. As a result of these trips visitors will be given an opportunity to draft plans for holes, taking advantage of the possibilities of the ground as they see it. When these drafts are turned in they will be checked up, marked, as it were, by the 'professor,' who will call attention to the good and to the weak points.
      "Unquestionably, the creation of an institute of this kind has much to recommend it. One frequently hears this or that person say: 'I wish I knew how to lay out a golf course,' or words to that effect. Anyone with a predilection for that branch of the game would certainly derive the needed encouragement, all according to the manner in which he grasped its problems and puzzles.

[Peter Bowman]

I wouldn't be surprise if there is a waitlist for the program. As of Jan. 2024, there are about 22.7M millionaires in America. Of the 22.7M, there should be some number who are avid golfers, of 22.7M there are X individuals who are willing to spend $20K on a 4 day program (to some its a vacation) to learn more about GCA.

However I suspect a small percentage of that final number have any knowledge of the program.

[Forrest Richardson]

Lynn's comments were very nice. The mention of Robin Nelson struck a nerve. He died too soon, and was a wonderful guy. He was giving, always had nice things to say, and people really liked him.

I am not involved, but was asked to help create the 'Diploma', which is a handsome "almost real' looking wall hanging that, frankly, is in good taste, but also is lighthearted. No, this is not a program to suddenly make you a golf designer. I like the analogy of the pilots letting the kids into the cockpit. That sums it up nicely.

Dan — I thought we took away your snarky badge??   When you wrote "I really don’t know what to make of this boot camp. Does the society think it helps their cause if someone thinks they can design golf after a 3 day crash course? Or are they really trying to show how hard it is? Or is it a new business play?" I cannot tell if you were looking for information, answers — or just wanted to stir something up. I took it as snarky after reading your post three times. Maybe that is not how you meant it. This is being put on by the ASGCA FOUNDATION, which is separate to the ASGCA. The Foundation's mission is educational and supportive to causes that affect Golf Design. Bringing awareness to the profession — likely among some well-to-do attendees — seems a good way to foster an appreciation for what we do. I am not sure how it could ever be construed to foster new business. These past presidents will be away from their livelihoods and offices for a week. They are not getting paid. That's really all this is...bringing awareness, and letting a few behind the scenes to see the process. There is no nefarious background. Really.

My Director of Research, JohnOas is attending. No...we do not pay him any sort of salary to support this lifestyle! John simply wants to learn more, and being semi-retired, he has the where-with-all and is passionate about getting his hands into the design process. It's as if he's being let into the cockpit!

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom D — You are always welcome to teach a class, and I think you would be wonderful at doing so. I am very sorry the Society was not welcoming to you many years ago. I suspect it was during a period in which new members were not on anyone's radar. That is a shame.

I just read an old (c. 1973) letter from Paul Fullmer, our longtime executive director who passed away several years ago. It was addressed to a 14 year old boy in Phoenix, Arizona and included some nice information, and a membership application. I am pretty sure Paul never knew I was 14.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wanted to see how the enrollment has been.  Did this program fill up the 16 slots for September?

Jeff,


We are halfway home without much promotion, enough that we break even and guarantee the camp will take place.  Many of us are working through our contacts in the industry now, and we think we will fill it up completely in a few months.  (So, don't delay!)


I have been working on my classroom content (never one to wait until the last minute) and submitted it.  I am also helping on two others (design process, reading topo maps) which will be presented by others.  I am not sure how I got selected to teach the broadest topic - green and green complex design - but deputy dog is on the case.  Each of 8 topics will be about a half an hour each (I have asked for a few minutes grace given that it is really two topics, if not three....) and most time will be spent either walking in the field or working at the drafting boards....or playing golf with a thoroughly boggled mind.


Please feel free to call with questions.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The Boot Camp event was completed, and everyone had a great time, so after getting some more formal feedback, it looks like we will do another one.


We ended up with 12 participants, and after some classroom time, they ran through routing four or five holes on parcels not used in the original routing. We ran through some hole grading, and then each student drew a green detail plan.


There was some classroom time before each design task, but the highlight, as expected, was wandering the property in search of golf holes.


Forrest, it was a pleasure to meet John, and he was a great participant, other than telling me you did it better than me.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Foundations can raise a lot of money.
Read carefully.  "chief beneficiary" does not mean all profits go to that charity.  And where you would offer "all of your proceeds" to a charity, I don't see that mentioned here.  Foundations are interesting... Associations such as PGA and GCSAA and USGA all have foundations as do clubs like ASGCA also.  A 501c3 is only required to distribute around 5% each year I think.  It's a great vehicle for absorbing expenses  and in the case of family foundations, it's a great way to give the "challenged kid" a job and keep him out of the company business.  I've watched it in a foundation I serve on for the last few years.

To Mike, we gave $50K to Clearview and $10K to the Wee One Foundation of WI. Yes, we kept some of the net to boost our general Foundation fund for later projects.  There was no hiring of family kids nor anything nefarious about this project. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Ben Stephens]

An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well

Someone just starting out… I don't mean a literal intern, I mean someone who is basically a "design associate" or a junior member of the team. The company could pay for it as a perk of their hiring/employment, potentially.

I don't think it's for rich dudes who just want to pretend they're going to become a golf course architect, but maybe there are 20 out there who will do just that. I don't know.

I really think it’s exactly the latter, Erik.

No company is going to pay $20k for this: If a design associate is already in a company, he is going to learn more on the job than he is in these 4 days…. And no intern (the real type, a youngster dying to get in to the business) can afford $20k unless someone else is paying.

I do think those taking part will learn stuff though, even just dipping a toe in the water.

The other issue is, how many golf architecture firms have associates who could conceivably benefit from this training? There are very, very few 'design associate' jobs left in the industry -- the vast majority of architects are one man bands -- and I only know of one recent new recruit, which is that my friend Tim Lobb, who is crazily busy, recently hired Sergio Carballo as an associate. But Tim got to know Sergio when the latter was doing the EIGCA training course, and the former was the Institute's president. In the unlikely event that a firm needs to hire someone, what is the likelihood that anyone who gets the job would need this kind of training? As close to nil as you can possibly imagine, imo.

Adam,


I know Sergio through years of EIGCA he is also a qualified Architect and recently became a RIBA member. He is based in the Gran Canaria which helps Tim with the Spanish market as well. I heard Sergio is a talented designer the only downside is that he supports Real Madrid! 

From the recent students of the EIGCA programme not only Sergio has got a job another is Gareth Weeks who now works for EGD and Pontius Leijon (a bloody good golfer best hcap is +5!) works for regolf (Christian Lundin)/Henrik Stenson Golf Design. They are all a great addition to the EIGCA

TD - it would be nice for your European based colleagues to join the EIGCA not only its golf course architect but also partners from companies that supply and support the industry.

Also M+E / CDP have recently employed people who haven't gone through EIGCA programme or some haven't gone through landscape or architectural training courses - it's their choice to do so. There is no rules that you have to have qualifications to do GCA in UK and Europe so I guess it's experience that counts in some ways.


I know which ones I rather have to work for me.

[Adam Lawrence]

An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well

Someone just starting out… I don't mean a literal intern, I mean someone who is basically a "design associate" or a junior member of the team. The company could pay for it as a perk of their hiring/employment, potentially.

I don't think it's for rich dudes who just want to pretend they're going to become a golf course architect, but maybe there are 20 out there who will do just that. I don't know.

I really think it’s exactly the latter, Erik.

No company is going to pay $20k for this: If a design associate is already in a company, he is going to learn more on the job than he is in these 4 days…. And no intern (the real type, a youngster dying to get in to the business) can afford $20k unless someone else is paying.

I do think those taking part will learn stuff though, even just dipping a toe in the water.

The other issue is, how many golf architecture firms have associates who could conceivably benefit from this training? There are very, very few 'design associate' jobs left in the industry -- the vast majority of architects are one man bands -- and I only know of one recent new recruit, which is that my friend Tim Lobb, who is crazily busy, recently hired Sergio Carballo as an associate. But Tim got to know Sergio when the latter was doing the EIGCA training course, and the former was the Institute's president. In the unlikely event that a firm needs to hire someone, what is the likelihood that anyone who gets the job would need this kind of training? As close to nil as you can possibly imagine, imo.

Adam,


I know Sergio through years of EIGCA he is also a qualified Architect and recently became a RIBA member. He is based in the Gran Canaria which helps Tim with the Spanish market as well. I heard Sergio is a talented designer the only downside is that he supports Real Madrid! 

From the recent students of the EIGCA programme not only Sergio has got a job another is Gareth Weeks who now works for EGD and Pontius Leijon (a bloody good golfer best hcap is +5!) works for regolf (Christian Lundin)/Henrik Stenson Golf Design. They are all a great addition to the EIGCA

Sergio is in Sevilla these days.

[Ben Stephens]

An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well

Someone just starting out… I don't mean a literal intern, I mean someone who is basically a "design associate" or a junior member of the team. The company could pay for it as a perk of their hiring/employment, potentially.

I don't think it's for rich dudes who just want to pretend they're going to become a golf course architect, but maybe there are 20 out there who will do just that. I don't know.

I really think it’s exactly the latter, Erik.

No company is going to pay $20k for this: If a design associate is already in a company, he is going to learn more on the job than he is in these 4 days…. And no intern (the real type, a youngster dying to get in to the business) can afford $20k unless someone else is paying.

I do think those taking part will learn stuff though, even just dipping a toe in the water.

The other issue is, how many golf architecture firms have associates who could conceivably benefit from this training? There are very, very few 'design associate' jobs left in the industry -- the vast majority of architects are one man bands -- and I only know of one recent new recruit, which is that my friend Tim Lobb, who is crazily busy, recently hired Sergio Carballo as an associate. But Tim got to know Sergio when the latter was doing the EIGCA training course, and the former was the Institute's president. In the unlikely event that a firm needs to hire someone, what is the likelihood that anyone who gets the job would need this kind of training? As close to nil as you can possibly imagine, imo.

Adam,


I know Sergio through years of EIGCA he is also a qualified Architect and recently became a RIBA member. He is based in the Gran Canaria which helps Tim with the Spanish market as well. I heard Sergio is a talented designer the only downside is that he supports Real Madrid! 

From the recent students of the EIGCA programme not only Sergio has got a job another is Gareth Weeks who now works for EGD and Pontius Leijon (a bloody good golfer best hcap is +5!) works for regolf (Christian Lundin)/Henrik Stenson Golf Design. They are all a great addition to the EIGCA

Sergio is in Sevilla these days.

Well he lives in the Gran Canaria now as he moved there recently as far as I know

[Tom_Doak]

TD - it would be nice for your European based colleagues to join the EIGCA not only its golf course architect but also partners from companies that supply and support the industry.

Also M+E / CDP have recently employed people who haven't gone through EIGCA programme or some haven't gone through landscape or architectural training courses - it's their choice to do so. There is no rules that you have to have qualifications to do GCA in UK and Europe so I guess it's experience that counts in some ways.

I know which ones I rather have to work for me.

Ben:


I did speak at one of the EIGCA programs years ago when I was in Ireland.  Ally Macintosh was one of the guys in the program then, he probably remembers more of it than I do.


Angela Moser did work briefly for an EIGCA member when she finished school and was very bored in the office; that's why she wrote to me to ask for work.  I don't think Clyde Johnson ever pursued employment with a designer over there, because he was an intern for us at Dismal River while working on his Masters degree in the USA, and after graduation we sent him off to Tara Iti. 


Honestly, I think either of them could teach a thing or two to most of their elders.  They work hard, and they aren't just desk jockeys . . . they could go out and build a good golf course by themselves, if they needed to.  I wish they had more chances on their own, but I've benefitted greatly from their continued good works in my name.