[Sean_A]

Padraig

I have been saying winter mats are the result of maximising summer tourist revenue for a good few years. For top clubs, I can’t understand the idea of reduced winter rate. Courses need a rest. Besides, one of the best things about a links club is the winter playability. Why offer a discount when the golf options are limited? Okay, maybe offer a few times a day on the cheap with no option to book more than 24 hours in advance or something similar.

I don’t know what is going on in Ireland, but member dues have been rising sharply in the UK. Clubs are doing all they can to attract visitors, then tell members that dues need to go up because the club doesn’t want to be over reliant on visitor fees. 🙈

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Padraig and Sean make some very valid points.
Reduced winter visitor rates are I suggest essentially a historic thing and relate to an earlier time when there was less winter play generally and probably no or at least very little winter visitor play, neither of which seem to be the case these days especially as GB&I winters, 2010 apart, brrrrr, seem to have become a little warmer. I note that some GB&I clubs have now raised their winter visitor rates more in line with the summer rates and some have done away with reduced winter greenfees altogether.
Where this goes in the future in terms of playing numbers, visitors, conditioning, expectations, prices and costs, fairway mats, dropping in the rough, paths and the like time will tell but I’m not sure come Spring time courses are going to be in the kind of condition we once saw them in when golf was more of a seasonal game.
Atb

[Richard Fisher]

This is a really tricky issue. At Harlech we went to mats last winter, whilst the new irrigation system was going in, and will do so again this winter, with the usual significant seasonal reduction in green fees (and winter fees remain a not insignificant revenue stream). Was the course in better condition this spring/summer/autumn as a result. 100% it was.
NB that several elite seaside clubs (e.g. Hunstanton) used to offer Winter Membership to those who already belonged somewhere else locally , precisely to encourage MORE winter usage, and (importantly) much greater clubhouse usage, a major cost overhead this site does sometimes overlook

[Sean_A]

This is a really tricky issue. At Harlech we went to mats last winter, whilst the new irrigation system was going in, and will do so again this winter, with the usual significant seasonal reduction in green fees (and winter fees remain a not insignificant revenue stream). Was the course in better condition this spring/summer/autumn as a result. 100% it was.
NB that several elite seaside clubs (e.g. Hunstanton) used to offer Winter Membership to those who already belonged somewhere else locally , precisely to encourage MORE winter usage, and (importantly) much greater clubhouse usage, a major cost overhead this site does sometimes overlook

I find that my clubs are in better nick in spring for winter mats, but the improved conditions don’t last long. As soon as divots are taken the course is back to traditional conditions.

Ciao

[Niall C]

This is a really tricky issue. At Harlech we went to mats last winter, whilst the new irrigation system was going in, and will do so again this winter, with the usual significant seasonal reduction in green fees (and winter fees remain a not insignificant revenue stream). Was the course in better condition this spring/summer/autumn as a result. 100% it was.
NB that several elite seaside clubs (e.g. Hunstanton) used to offer Winter Membership to those who already belonged somewhere else locally , precisely to encourage MORE winter usage, and (importantly) much greater clubhouse usage, a major cost overhead this site does sometimes overlook

Richard


Re mats - I'm surprised it has taken them so long. At the various links courses I've been a member at of the last 20 odd years, and indeed inland courses as well, they have all taken various mitigation measures to reduce wear and tear. At Silloth they used to put a white line round the low lying areas where the ball tended to gather, and you lifted your ball out and put it to the side and played from there. The norm however is to put a white line up the centre of the fairway and depending on what side of the line you were you either kicked your ball into the left semi-rough or the right and played from there. I know a number of clubs that have done that. There's no doubt it makes a difference in the earlier part of the season.


Re Hunstanton - I met an old colleague this morning who I hadn't seen for a while. Hunstanton came up in conversation and he mentioned how basic it was. I was able to tell him how I'd played there last year and how nice the refurbed clubhouse was. No doubt that is a factor in trying to attract visitors.


Niall

[Ken Moum]

[

Agreed - if it's a separate list, then I think that's ok. It's when the lists are combined and the sole reason for joining is for cheaper golf (per Ken's post). I believe Dornoch has a combined list.

First, AFAIK Dornoch doesn't have an Overseas membership category. Everyone pays the same.


So you have a percentage of members who are unlikely to be in Scotland for the full season, paying full rate.


And I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. My wife and I have a membership because we want to support a club that needs support, want to play at that club, enjoy the membership,  AND because it makes it possible for us to afford and extended trip to a place we love.


We are, in fact, paying for the coming year despite having no intention of being there, simply because we think the club needs that support.


And if any club is denying locals a membership to chase visitor money, that's not the the visitor's fault.

[JohnVDB]

Ken,


You are correct that there is no International membership level.  Once you are a full (as opposed to Struie) member you have equal rights.  This does mean that the the overseas members are subsidizing he locals to some extent, but our memberships are so inexpensive compared to the other well known courses down south that I don’t think people mind that. When overseas members come over to play, they don’t have any limits on the number of times they can play as they do at some other courses.


Dornoch’s visitors rate was quite a bit lower than corresponding top courses down south, but that has been adjusted in the last couple of years to bring it more into line. At the same time, the number of times available for outside play has been reduced to ensure more times for members as there has been pushback that members couldn’t get the times they wanted.

[Sean_A]

One of my clubs has been very clever re mats. If you want to play the ball down no mat is required. If you play winter rules the mat is required. That said, I have often been pushing my ball to the rough for years. I don’t much see the point in beating up fairways in winter if the rough is a few yards away.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Cha Ching. The gouging continues. Old Course is now £320 a round. I have to wonder where all this money is going. Is the experience any better than my first visit over 30 years ago?

Ciao

[Steve Salmen]

Most people make quite a bit more than they used to and household wealth for people that travel to Scotland to play golf has gone up a lot.  There are only so many visitor spots available. Like most items in the Western World, highest bidder wins.  The Clubs are happy to take increased visitor fees.


A late September afternoon in 1991, I was finishing up a round at Old Musselburgh with a local guy.  He asked the green fee at Muirfiled.  I told him 45 pounds.  He said, "If that's not a f---ing rip off!"  And he was sort of right.  I was 19 and the green fee was a far greater percentage of my income than the current fee is today.  But he was wrong in that regardless of price, I played a round where I still remember a lot of my shots and remember all of the holes.


Links golf is the greatest privilege in the game for me to play.  I don't aspire to complete a top 100 list but I would love to play all the links courses.  If you really love it and can pull it off, pay the fee and hopefully you enjoy it like I first did in 1991.

[Tim_Weiman]

It has been a very common theory in Ireland and elsewhere that overseas visitors will only go to golf courses where the fees are high and in order to attract more visitors you need to have higher fees. Typically there are a few courses in Ireland that are used as examples of an increase in visitors after the fees were put up.
However, this theory is flawed. The reason behind the increase in play was not the increase in fee but the increase in travel after the recovery of the crash of 2008, starting in 2012 there was a year on year increase of foreign travel into Ireland and more than likely Scotland too of higher than 10% a few years after 2012 the increase had jumped to 20%. This also meant an increase in golfers travelling and looking to play but there was no increase in the capacity of the golf courses they were looking to play. In the quieter travel times an easy travel schedule could be made to play the 6,7,8,9 etc courses the golfers had heard about and wanted to play. All of a sudden this couldn't happen so courses A,B or C was added in to make the schedule flow. These courses weren't as good as Lahinch, Ballybunion etc but still were good courses in the right location but lesser known, they were able to offer a similar enjoyable experience, typically links.
The increase in fees came from that most golfers travelling are coming on a package and they don't know what they were paying per round. This was noticed so the fees could be upped and no one paying would know which courses were charging more or less. All the golfers knew is they were paying 4,000, 6,000, 8,000 etc per trip. The tour operators then started telling courses you need to up your prices for the overseas visitors to come, some of the courses give a percentage to operators so then they would send the golfers to the places where they got a higher commission. The courses were hardly going to turn down more revenue and then started increasing their fees steadily.
If it was true that raising fees dramatically would lead to more outside play than a lesser known parkland course in the middle of the country could do so, but if they did they would lose all their business.

The golfers who did notice the rise in fees were relatively local golfers who might have played once or twice a year and these are the golfers who comment on the rise in the fees as they contact the club directly, whereas the overseas visitors have an operator doing the booking. Soon, a local rate started to appear to appease this golfers but if you are charging one golfer one price as they live close to the club and another golfer another price as they live overseas that is gouging. How can you charge two visitors playing, potentially at the same time, two different prices? Also, shouldn't the golfer paying the most get better treatment? I don't think it's a good idea to tell your best customers that you are openly gouging them.
I don't think these situations are the same as public courses charging locals in the municipality reduced rates as many times local tax dollars can go into the public courses.

Some of the courses are privately owned for profit organisations so they are going to try to maximise profits, others are members owned clubs and don't need to be making substantial profits and certainly shouldn't be charging membership fees that are dramatically subsidised by outside play. One club 25 years ago had annual dues that were about 8 times the visitor fee, the annual dues haven't really increased in the 25 years but now 2 visitor fees are more expensive than the annual dues. You also have a better chance of pulling hen's teeth than raising the annual dues at some of the clubs.
I do understand the requirement for all clubs to make a profit but charging fees at a club on the west coast of Ireland based on what Pebble Beach or similar charge where there is a dramatic difference into the inputs on the golf courses and staffing levels etc isn't always sustainable and during the crash of 2008 and restrictions on travel in 2020 and 2021 all the courses started charging a price that was more suitable to their local market. When the next unexpected event occurs, the prices will come back down again.
The other curious thing that happened during this period is now many of the links courses substantially rest the course in the off season to get it ready for the following summer, so now members take the ball off the fairway or use a mat whereas before there was a great joy in heading from soggy parkland courses to the dry links turf during the winter.

Padraig,


I remember what things were like when I first played Ballybunion back in the 1980s. Unemployment in County Kerry was running about 45%. So sure, I paid a far higher price than locals who were members but were unable to pay even the very low annual membership fees (200 Irish).


Former Secretary Sean Walsh was loved and managed the situation very well making both local members who were unable to pay and foreign visitors who could pay feel quite welcome.


I certainly never felt gouged.


Has the charm of the Sean Walsh era remained? Sadly, I don’t think so.

[Bill Gayne]

Cha Ching. The gouging continues. Old Course is now £320 a round. I have to wonder where all this money is going. Is the experience any better than my first visit over 30 years ago?

Ciao

TOC still less than Kingsbarns.

[Daryl David]

Cha Ching. The gouging continues. Old Course is now £320 a round. I have to wonder where all this money is going. Is the experience any better than my first visit over 30 years ago?

Ciao

TOC still less than Kingsbarns.

And less than Muirfield.

[Garland Bayley]

Most Some people make quite a bit more than they used to...

[Mark Chaplin]

St Andrews is an interesting one and I guess Carnoustie is similar. Something like 50% of play, through links ticket holders, produces 10% of the income and the remaining 90% of income comes from the 50% of outside play.
When the new CEO of the Trust took over a couple of years back he raised fees around 50% as he saw Kingsbarns and Dumbarnie exist because of St Andrews yet were charging more than the Old course and with very few concessions. I managed to play Kingsbarns for £20 plus £5 for prizes but that’s rare.
As to Seans question, the Trust is a very professional outfit, parking is good, the clubhouses well staffed and comfortable, the food is excellent and the off course experience matches the on course experience.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread.


What would you prefer: Higher prices or ZERO access?


For the most part (except places like Kingsbarn, Castle Stuart, etc.) these are member courses where the sight of the Perry tour van brings cringe-worthy looks from the members.


Sure, it helps with expenses, but at most courses, members would gladly advocate for fewer tours at higher fees so that the locals can actually play their own course without having the 4-ball from Philly clogging their couyrse with a 4:45 hour, photo-laden leisure round.


Hope this gouging can bring more attention to the next tier of courses like Fraserburgh, Elie, etc.

[Ben Sims]

Ian,


Clearly access is preferred. And the market will decide. I’ll gladly pay the freight for places that I’m not a member for the chance to play links golf. It’s a luxury that this American rarely gets. But…ask yourself if you ever thought a round of golf at Peterhead would be $150.

[Sean_A]

Ian,


Clearly access is preferred. And the market will decide. I’ll gladly pay the freight for places that I’m not a member for the chance to play links golf. It’s a luxury that this American rarely gets. But…ask yourself if you ever thought a round of golf at Peterhead would be $150.

Exactly. The more first tier prices rise, the more 2nd tier courses ride the coat tails. As folks say, its market demand and if one doesn't like it don't play. Unfortuantely this is what I have largely done for years. Every year more courses drop off the play list.


Ciao

[Brian_Ewen]

Hope this gouging can bring more attention to the next tier of courses like Fraserburgh, Elie, etc.

Surely, that should be the next tier after that tier?

[Sean_A]

St Andrews is an interesting one and I guess Carnoustie is similar. Something like 50% of play, through links ticket holders, produces 10% of the income and the remaining 90% of income comes from the 50% of outside play.
When the new CEO of the Trust took over a couple of years back he raised fees around 50% as he saw Kingsbarns and Dumbarnie exist because of St Andrews yet were charging more than the Old course and with very few concessions. I managed to play Kingsbarns for £20 plus £5 for prizes but that’s rare.
As to Seans question, the Trust is a very professional outfit, parking is good, the clubhouses well staffed and comfortable, the food is excellent and the off course experience matches the on course experience.

Hmmm, the linkshouse is akin to a decent chain restaurant. It works. However, it is nowhere near in the league of the on course experience.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

St Andrews is an interesting one and I guess Carnoustie is similar. Something like 50% of play, through links ticket holders, produces 10% of the income and the remaining 90% of income comes from the 50% of outside play.
When the new CEO of the Trust took over a couple of years back he raised fees around 50% as he saw Kingsbarns and Dumbarnie exist because of St Andrews yet were charging more than the Old course and with very few concessions. I managed to play Kingsbarns for £20 plus £5 for prizes but that’s rare.
As to Seans question, the Trust is a very professional outfit, parking is good, the clubhouses well staffed and comfortable, the food is excellent and the off course experience matches the on course experience.

Hmmm, the linkshouse is akin to a decent chain restaurant. It works. However, it is nowhere near in the league of the on course experience.

Ciao

Quite.  At least at other rota courses, your green fee allows you to enjoy a drink and a bite to eat in the clubhouse, rather than what passes for an admittedly quite good chain restaurant.

[Mark Pearce]

Hope this gouging can bring more attention to the next tier of courses like Fraserburgh, Elie, etc.

Peak season green fee at Elie is now £150.  And peak season visitor times are almost always full. 

[Thomas Dai]

Turn things around.
Who isn’t gonna price gauge if an appropriate supply and demand situation presents itself?
“Gee I’m such a nice person I think I’ll sell my house for less than it’s worth.”
“Gee we’re such a wonderful company we’ll sell our products for less than their worth.”
Plus at private members clubs one of the best ways to keep visitor numbers low and thus retain decent teetime availability for the members, who are after all the folks who actually own the club, yet still grab a nice wedge of income is through price.
Of course it’s not unknown for restricted availability, exclusivity to some, to increase demand especially when some visitors have an “if it’s expensive it must be good, if it’s cheap it must be rubbish” view. Ego and vanity time. And as the large mustache adorned fictional General Melchett or someone of his like may once have said only possibly in jest “high prices keep the riffraff out, what, what old chap”.
And not just greenfees either, applies to other things too like the famous club logo hats and shirts and towels etc that visitors from certain parts of the World seem to love to buy (do they bring an extra suitcase with them to take all their memorabilia purchases home in?). You think there’s no price gauaging on these? Rental clubs, buggies and elect/pull-trolleys too. Folks have to make a buck or they aren’t in business for long and if they ain’t in the business there’s gonna be no one to buy them from, that’s if they are needed. I wonder if anyone still wears a  woolly hat
made by their Grannie with wool purchased from the high street wool shop (do such still exist!?) rather than a logo’d beannie they payed £50 for at some famous usual suspect high profile course.
Same applies to other related activities like car hire, accommodation, food and beverage etc etc.
It is what it is. No moaning. Live with it or don’t come.
Rant (with plenty of sic) over … at least for now!

Atb

[JohnVDB]

This has been a very interesting thread. Ian’s comment about members advocating fewer torus with higher fees is spot on.


At Dornoch, the number of outside tee times have been lowered to allow more access for members while increasing the fees, thus generating the income the club needs while meeting meeting members needs.


The sad thing I’ve seen is that a number of people who love golf for the right reasons and would love to play the courses can’t afford it now. I played with a guy from Texas last year. He had made three or four trips to Scotland and the only course he’d replayed was Dornoch.  He told me it was probably his last round there due to the price increases. Sad for him, good for the second and third tier courses I guess. I actually gave him my contact info and offered to host him if I was there.

[Kalen Braley]

Its hard to disagree with Thomas' post. It is golf we're talking about, not critical necessities like food, housing, healthcare, etc. so gouge away I suppose.

The sad part is in a way the UK open access model is becoming more like the American private model even if its by pricing em out instead of physically keeping them out.  In the end, just the same ole same ole where money spoils everything...

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