Scotland Price Gouging

[Sean_A]

I am planning an annual links trip for next year and thought I would give one possible course a call to check on availability, price etc. I suspect my accent was detected because I was told that if we are an overseas society the pricing would be higher than for GB&I groups. The reasoning was mainly American groups are more likely to pay more attention to more expensive courses...thinking they must be worth seeing. This has been talked about a lot recently and may well have helped fuel crazy green fee hikes in recent years. Many blame inflation, but on its own inflation doesn't explain some hikes in fees. In any case, I was puzzled because I already made the call of interest without knowing the fees. It seemed sort of ass backwards to then be told American parties will be charged more because they won't come unless the fees are higher. I am fairly certain I will not be giving this club our business because of such blatant bias against foreign groups. To think, I chose the club partly because it has been on hard times recently. The call happened a few days ago and I am still bit astonished. 

Ciao

[MClutterbuck]

The one price discrimination I understand and actually apply is between dues paying members and non-members of the local Golf Association. Golf courses benefit from membership of said associations, and dues paying members make that possible. So I am all in favor of charging non members more.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Jim Hartsell talks briefly about this in When Revelation Comes. For a long trip in Scotland it may be worth joining a Scottish Club for a year if you can, and you might get the Scottish Club rates. Hartsell is a member of Dunaverty and Mac I think, but, and I mean this honestly, if you’re playing some of the smaller clubs, they probably need the income if you can spare it. Brexit hasn’t been kind to the Scottish economy, which was honestly struggling a bit even when I lived there 15 years ago.

[Mike Worth]

The last two years I’ve taken extended 30 day vacations, mostly playing golf in the UK


I’ve always understood a three tiered pricing system for guests. Tier 1 is accompanied guests.  Tier 2 is UK golfing societies. Tier 3 is US unaccompanied tourists who, of course, pay the most.


IMO I don’t think what you experienced is new, it’s just the way it is.


Don’t think this is changing anytime soon because Americans are still willing to pay the higher prices.

[Sean_A]

The last two years I’ve taken extended 30 day vacations, mostly playing golf in the UK

I’ve always understood a three tiered pricing system for guests. Tier 1 is accompanied guests.  Tier 2 is UK golfing societies. Tier 3 is US unaccompanied tourists who, of course, pay the most.

IMO I don’t think what you experienced is new, it’s just the way it is.

Don’t think this is changing anytime soon because Americans are still willing to pay the higher prices.

I have been to Scotland countless times for golf over the course of 30 plus years. This was the first time I have ever been asked if we are an overseas society.  In fact, its very rare for me to encounter different visitor fees. What is usually the case is there is a viistor fee and targeted discounts such as parties over 12, age based reductions, Scottish Golf member (quite rare), Scottish (in my experience quite rare) etc. I am not sure I have come across a different visitor rate depending on if one is from the UK (non-Scotland) or abroad. Looking at the website, this club does both. There is a standard visitor rate, Scottish rate, Scottish Golf rate and International rate. First I have seen this in the UK that I can recall.  The International rate is juicy....40% higher.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


In fairness, the overseas differentiation started with Kingsbarns which was an American development. Since then it has become standard practice for the big pay and play courses. However they sell it on the basis that locals get a discount, with the more local you are the bigger the discount. By the sound of things this club is trying to do it the other way about with the "normal" fee being what the locals pay and the overseas paying in excess of that. Its basically the same fee structure but just sold differently.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Sorry folks but private member clubs are private member clubs and what they do is up to them. Folks might not like it but private member clubs are under no obligation to let anyone other than their members play their course. Getting to play them is not some kind of right of passage, it’s essentially a privilege, even if it’s a privilege paying a greenfee might permit.
Now some private members clubs want the income that visitors bring, indeed some want lots of it while some want some and some don’t want much. It’s not an outsider decision however but the members choice who and how many visitors get to play and what the price should be. Indeed there’s not much worse than standing in the car park at your club, your club, the club you own, and not being able to get onto the first tee due to an excess of visitors or suffering a 5 hr round due to visitors playing ahead.
Resort, pay-n-play and local authority (ie muni/links trust type) courses are of course a different beast.
Atb

[Niall C]

Jim Hartsell talks briefly about this in When Revelation Comes. For a long trip in Scotland it may be worth joining a Scottish Club for a year if you can, and you might get the Scottish Club rates. Hartsell is a member of Dunaverty and Mac I think, but, and I mean this honestly, if you’re playing some of the smaller clubs, they probably need the income if you can spare it. Brexit hasn’t been kind to the Scottish economy, which was honestly struggling a bit even when I lived there 15 years ago.

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us !" 

[Kalen Braley]

This may be a minority view but given:

1)  Scotland as a country has the most golf courses per capita with plenty of other options.
2)  Golf is "entertainment" as opposed to a necessity like housing, healthcare, food, etc.

Gouging in this case doesn't really offend me.  (I will now take cover)

[Sean_A]

Sean

In fairness, the overseas differentiation started with Kingsbarns which was an American development. Since then it has become standard practice for the big pay and play courses. However they sell it on the basis that locals get a discount, with the more local you are the bigger the discount. By the sound of things this club is trying to do it the other way about with the "normal" fee being what the locals pay and the overseas paying in excess of that. Its basically the same fee structure but just sold differently.

Niall

I do think there is a difference between an overseas surcharge and offering local breaks.

I note that Kingsbarns no longer lists breaks or surcharge based on residency, Castle Stuart has no surcharge for overseas visitors.

Brora has an international rate. They went cheeky when Covid hit.

Ciao

[Mike Worth]

The last two years I’ve taken extended 30 day vacations, mostly playing golf in the UK

I’ve always understood a three tiered pricing system for guests. Tier 1 is accompanied guests.  Tier 2 is UK golfing societies. Tier 3 is US unaccompanied tourists who, of course, pay the most.

IMO I don’t think what you experienced is new, it’s just the way it is.

Don’t think this is changing anytime soon because Americans are still willing to pay the higher prices.

I have been to Scotland countless times for golf over the course of 30 plus years. This was the first time I have ever been asked if we are an overseas society.  In fact, its very rare for me to encounter different visitor fees. What is usually the case is there is a viistor fee and targeted discounts such as parties over 12, age based reductions, Scottish Golf member (quite rare), Scottish (in my experience quite rare) etc. I am not sure I have come across a different visitor rate depending on if one is from the UK (non-Scotland) or abroad. Looking at the website, this club does both. There is a standard visitor rate, Scottish rate, Scottish Golf rate and International rate. First I have seen this in the UK that I can recall.  The International rate is juicy....40% higher.

Ciao

I should’ve been a bit clearer in my description of a three tiered pricing structure. As others have pointed out, that is the case for higher end clubs.


There are plenty of clubs (and good ones) that do not charge a different guest rate based on country of origin

[Joel_Stewart]

It works both ways.


TPC Sawgrass owned by the nonprofit PGA Tour is charging $950? At least its a top 100 course.


TPC Scottsdale is a piece of sh!t and is $575.

[Niall C]

I do think there is a difference between an overseas surcharge and offering local breaks.

Sean


The price structure is the same. It's just how they sell it. At the likes of Dumbarnie, and at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart not long ago, overseas visitors paid 4x, UK residents 3x, Scottish residents 2x and those lucky folk living in the local postcode 1x. They just presented the 4x as the normal price to give the locals the idea they were getting a discount. It sounds like the club you spoke to weren't savvy enough for that and presented the local rate as the normal price.


As an aside, I note Kingsbarns "Regular Visitor Green Fees" are £374 peak season. They don't advertise any discounts other than U18 and PGA/BIGGA discounts, but locals are unlikely to pay £374 a round.


Castle Stuart doesn't charge overseas visitors more as such but what they do is charge the visitor rate of £270 and a Scottish Golf Member rate of £140. With a few exceptions the vast majority of overseas visitors won't be Scottish Golf Members and most Scottish Golf Members won't be overseas visitors. As I say, it's just the way they sell it.


Niall

[Phil Young]

How about this for a comparison, Bethpage Black. New York State Residents $70 weekdays/ $80 weekends. Out of State $140 weekdays/ $160 weekends. How is this any different percentage wise, from the prices in Scotland?

[Mike Worth]

How about this for a comparison, Bethpage Black. New York State Residents $70 weekdays/ $80 weekends. Out of State $140 weekdays/ $160 weekends. How is this any different percentage wise, from the prices in Scotland?

At those price points does anyone care?

[Sean_A]

I do think there is a difference between an overseas surcharge and offering local breaks.

Sean


The price structure is the same. It's just how they sell it. At the likes of Dumbarnie, and at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart not long ago, overseas visitors paid 4x, UK residents 3x, Scottish residents 2x and those lucky folk living in the local postcode 1x. They just presented the 4x as the normal price to give the locals the idea they were getting a discount. It sounds like the club you spoke to weren't savvy enough for that and presented the local rate as the normal price.


As an aside, I note Kingsbarns "Regular Visitor Green Fees" are £374 peak season. They don't advertise any discounts other than U18 and PGA/BIGGA discounts, but locals are unlikely to pay £374 a round.


Castle Stuart doesn't charge overseas visitors more as such but what they do is charge the visitor rate of £270 and a Scottish Golf Member rate of £140. With a few exceptions the vast majority of overseas visitors won't be Scottish Golf Members and most Scottish Golf Members won't be overseas visitors. As I say, it's just the way they sell it.


Niall

Yes, so there is a discount for locals. I am talking about a 3 tier visitor rate. Standard rate. International rate. Discount rate for locals. It’s a highly unusual structure in the UK. I am not sure where people are getting the idea that this structure is normal. It’s not.

Phil

NY residents pay tax to support state parks. Outsiders should pay more. Makes complete sense.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

How about this for a comparison, Bethpage Black. New York State Residents $70 weekdays/ $80 weekends. Out of State $140 weekdays/ $160 weekends. How is this any different percentage wise, from the prices in Scotland?

There are all kinds of local, county and state resident rates/discounts in the U.S. I don’t recall playing where a distinction on price was made based on what country you were from. Is that a practice in Ireland and Great Britain as well? An international rate?

[Tom_Doak]

As a part owner of St. Patrick's, I've been involved in discussions about pricing there for the first time in my life, though of course I generally yield to the Casey family who have been operating Rosapenna for 40 years.


We have to have two rates:  the rack rate and a locals' rate, which you qualify for as a member of the Golf Union of Ireland.


Then there is the cut for the tour operators . . . I won't get into that beyond saying that the rate you pay via a tour operator is rarely the same as what the tour operator pays the golf club.

[James Reader]

As an aside, I note Kingsbarns "Regular Visitor Green Fees" are £374 peak season. They don't advertise any discounts other than U18 and PGA/BIGGA discounts, but locals are unlikely to pay £374 a round.


Niall



Locals with a St Andrews Links ticket pay £75, having paid less than the regular green fee for 12 months’ golf on all 7 St Andrews courses (if they live in the town).

[John Handley]

As a regular visitor to Scotland and Ireland, I have paid my fair share of high green fees.  That said, I do not feel that it is Price gouging" at all.  Simply put, it's supply and demand.  No different than any other form of entertainment.  Have you looked at buying concert tickets lately? 


As long as there are enough people willing to pay $300, $400, or $500 for a round of golf at XYZ club, then that's what they will charge.  I don't have an interest in paying $950 for TPC Sawgrass of $525 for TPC Scottsdale as I've already played them.  But I am happy to pay $300-500 for another great golf courses I have yet experienced.  I am just appreciative that they will allow us on their private club.  What do you think the green fees would be if you could play Augusta National, Cypress Point, or Pine Valley? 

[Ken Moum]

Overseas membership is clearly the way to go on extended stays, especially with good recip. rates.


I did have a golf course person tell me, "I you green fee is under £100 Americans don't think your course is any good."

[Pete_Pittock]

They may be taking the hint offered by New Zealand, Australia

[Michael Whitaker]

Sorry folks but private member clubs are private member clubs and what they do is up to them. Folks might not like it but private member clubs are under no obligation to let anyone other than their members play their course. Getting to play them is not some kind of right of passage, it’s essentially a privilege, even if it’s a privilege paying a greenfee might permit.
Now some private members clubs want the income that visitors bring, indeed some want lots of it while some want some and some don’t want much. It’s not an outsider decision however but the members choice who and how many visitors get to play and what the price should be. Indeed there’s not much worse than standing in the car park at your club, your club, the club you own, and not being able to get onto the first tee due to an excess of visitors or suffering a 5 hr round due to visitors playing ahead.
Resort, pay-n-play and local authority (ie muni/links trust type) courses are of course a different beast.
Atb

David - there are very few true PRIVATE clubs in the UK. Almost all the clubs popular with Yanks are semi-private (at best). Most would really suffer without the income they receive from visitors. I’m a member of two UK clubs, Royal Cinque Ports and Gullane. The local members at these clubs pay PER YEAR what most Americans pay PER MONTH for their membership. That’s why the Yanks are willing to pay the high visitor fees… they’re used to paying high rates for a round of golf.


Let’s face it, this is a supply & demand business. As long as the demand keeps growing the rates will continue to climb.


And, it’s true that the tour operators and club associations have been advising clubs to up their rates to attract more visitors. Doak’s comment about the tour operators getting a cut of the bookings helps one understand why they want to see trip prices go up. It’s time Arble gets serious about his Classic British Golf Tours and turns it into a real business! 😉

[Mike Worth]

Sorry folks but private member clubs are private member clubs and what they do is up to them. Folks might not like it but private member clubs are under no obligation to let anyone other than their members play their course. Getting to play them is not some kind of right of passage, it’s essentially a privilege, even if it’s a privilege paying a greenfee might permit.
Now some private members clubs want the income that visitors bring, indeed some want lots of it while some want some and some don’t want much. It’s not an outsider decision however but the members choice who and how many visitors get to play and what the price should be. Indeed there’s not much worse than standing in the car park at your club, your club, the club you own, and not being able to get onto the first tee due to an excess of visitors or suffering a 5 hr round due to visitors playing ahead.
Resort, pay-n-play and local authority (ie muni/links trust type) courses are of course a different beast.
Atb

David - there are very few true PRIVATE clubs in the UK. Almost all the clubs popular with Yanks are semi-private (at best). Most would really suffer without the income they receive from visitors. I’m a member of two UK clubs, Royal Cinque Ports and Gullane. The local members at these clubs pay PER YEAR what most Americans pay PER MONTH for their membership. That’s why the Yanks are willing to pay the high visitor fees… they’re used to paying high rates for a round of golf.


Let’s face it, this is a supply & demand business. As long as the demand keeps growing the rates will continue to climb.


And, it’s true that the tour operators and club associations have been advising clubs to up their rates to attract more visitors. Doak’s comment about the tour operators getting a cut of the bookings helps one understand why they want to see trip prices go up. It’s time Arble gets serious about his Classic British Golf Tours and turns it into a real business! 😉

A member I was paired with at a course in the UK (recently within last 2 years) ran me through some of the guest fee revenues the club budgeted.


I don’t think I should name the club, but it is definitely a high-end private club.


In 2021 said club budgeted £330,000 for visitor green fees. Due to the pandemic, only £220,000 was realized.


In 2022 the club budgeted the same £330,000. However, 2022 being a banner travel year, the club was on a pace to do £440,000 in guest revenue.


I’m pretty sure this shows how dependent these clubs are on guest fees — Americans paying a higher rate is a big part of it.

[Sean_A]

Sorry folks but private member clubs are private member clubs and what they do is up to them. Folks might not like it but private member clubs are under no obligation to let anyone other than their members play their course. Getting to play them is not some kind of right of passage, it’s essentially a privilege, even if it’s a privilege paying a greenfee might permit.
Now some private members clubs want the income that visitors bring, indeed some want lots of it while some want some and some don’t want much. It’s not an outsider decision however but the members choice who and how many visitors get to play and what the price should be. Indeed there’s not much worse than standing in the car park at your club, your club, the club you own, and not being able to get onto the first tee due to an excess of visitors or suffering a 5 hr round due to visitors playing ahead.
Resort, pay-n-play and local authority (ie muni/links trust type) courses are of course a different beast.
Atb

David - there are very few true PRIVATE clubs in the UK. Almost all the clubs popular with Yanks are semi-private (at best). Most would really suffer without the income they receive from visitors. I’m a member of two UK clubs, Royal Cinque Ports and Gullane. The local members at these clubs pay PER YEAR what most Americans pay PER MONTH for their membership. That’s why the Yanks are willing to pay the high visitor fees… they’re used to paying high rates for a round of golf.


Let’s face it, this is a supply & demand business. As long as the demand keeps growing the rates will continue to climb.


And, it’s true that the tour operators and club associations have been advising clubs to up their rates to attract more visitors. Doak’s comment about the tour operators getting a cut of the bookings helps one understand why they want to see trip prices go up. It’s time Arble gets serious about his Classic British Golf Tours and turns it into a real business! 😉

A member I was paired with at a course in the UK (recently within last 2 years) ran me through some of the guest fee revenues the club budgeted.


I don’t think I should name the club, but it is definitely a high-end private club.


In 2021 said club budgeted £330,000 for visitor green fees. Due to the pandemic, only £220,000 was realized.


In 2022 the club budgeted the same £330,000. However, 2022 being a banner travel year, the club was on a pace to do £440,000 in guest revenue.


I’m pretty sure this shows how dependent these clubs are on guest fees — Americans paying a higher rate is a big part of it.

A lot of the money "required" to operate a club hoping to attract overseas cash these days is spent to attract overseas visitors. A load of clubs have spent tons of money on their course and house in the past few decades when it wasn't necessary. We see it every year now as a matter of course. In 1990 clubs operated just fine on far smaller budgets wioth far fewer visitors on much cheaper rates...even accounting for inflation. Now we have clubs guaranteed to take in tons of visitor cash still raising dues so as to not be so dependent on visitor cash  ....its comical. Yes, visitor cash is needed, as was the case for the past 40 years or more. Only recently, things have gone nuts. The clubs which could really use vistor cash generally aren't good enough to attract enough visitors. Look at Musselburgh Old. It struggled forever and is now doing alright, but could still use more visitor cash. People drive past it to spend £400 at Muirfield etc.


Ciao