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Rory Connaughton

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2023, 10:05:55 AM »
Is Flynn's style too practical to stand out against a Hollywood or Travis in general?
Given his background as a course superintendent, is Flynn's style aimed at the practicalities of course maintenance at the expense of
eye candy?
Or is Flynn's style derivative of what he worked on at Merion but subdued to account for the weak caliber of golfer joining newly formed clubs in the teens and 20's?

mike_malone

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2023, 03:47:43 PM »
People still often say that Rolling Green is a hard course so I think he did build some championship courses beyond Shinnecock.


  When I speak of his playability choices over Travis’ I think of his use of angles particularly at the green complexes. Hitting over a green side bunker with green beyond or choosing to hit through the opening is a much more golfish thing than having bunkers parallel to the green or encircling the whole entrance.


I think that this is a stark difference in the two architects.


 Using slope on greens rather than undulations enables the putting surface to stand the test of time. Those knobs in the green suffer at today’s speeds.


 I understand that raters may never get this distinction but more discerning eyes see it.
AKA Mayday

Michael Moore

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2023, 05:17:06 PM »
Hitting over a green side bunker with green beyond or choosing to hit through the opening is a much more golfish thing than having bunkers parallel to the green or encircling the whole entrance.

I think that this is a stark difference in the two architects.

What Flynn achieves through bunkers Travis achieves through green contours. Just swap "massive green contour" for "greenside bunker" in the above quotation. On the seventh hole at Hollywood you have to challenge the right side and make sure you are approaching from there, and then you have you get it all the way back, over a severe internal slope. Same idea.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

mike_malone

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2023, 05:45:44 PM »
I think 7 and 8 are exceptions to my statement. One had a tremendous angled green and left to right slope.


I’m thinking a little of CC of Scranton as well.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2023, 05:48:25 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

JNagle

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2023, 10:59:59 PM »
Rory,  hard to say how Flynn's time as a superintendent impacted his design styles.  Our expectations for todays maintenance versus his time as a super are incredibly different.  Old photos of various courses show water draining right through the bunkers and washing sand.  Something not accepted at many clubs these days because of the expense of constructing bunkers.  I have come to find many of the back slopes to the rear of his early plateaued greens were quite severe and deep.  A few clubs have softened the banks.  This was likely true of the NLE par 4 that played along the current entrance drive at LCC toward New Holland Pike.  I think LCC is the perfect example of how he evolved as a designer considering some of the features evident in the early years of the current property.  Over the next 26 years, you saw many of those "eye-candy" features eliminated for the more subdued (for lack of a better term) features that we see today. 


We all can speak to his use of width and angles/diagonals in his designs.  This does certainly play well for a variety of playing abilities, even as the game was growing in the roaring twenties.  Room for error for a less controlled golfer, and a heroic line for those inclined to take on the strategic angles.  Since we are discussing RG in this thread, I find many of this bunkers to be perfectly placed on the land.  IMO, holes like #2, #5, #8 (the ditches), #10, #14, and #18 to present the eye-candy some are looking for.  They just don't have the dramatic impact at first glance.  I believe Mike is acknowledging that in his comments, to a degree.  Flynn takes a second and sometimes third glance to really "get" it.  The two Flynn courses I have had the longest consulting relationship with are LCC and Philly.  Yet, after all this time and I don't know how many walks over those properties, I am still learning from his work.  Pure Genius. 


I liken Flynn to Hugh Alison from the standpoint that both often (not all the time) were economical in their use of fairway bunkering but presented the golfer with a challenging approach to a green that was angled one way or another and often bunkered to both sides.  I like Michael Moore's thought that Flynn used bunkers whereas Travis used internal contours.


To Maydays point "Using slope on greens rather than undulations enables the putting surface to stand the test of time. Those knobs in the green suffer at today’s speeds."[/size][size=78%]  [/size]As for overall pitch being more maintainable that undulations that depends on the overall size of the greens and severity of the undulations.  I have worked on many of the greens at RG when they were expanded in '14.  Believe me there are plenty of areas of those greens that do not stand up to todays green speeds.  A 3.7% slope may have been acceptable a few years ago, but with todays standards, that's really pushing it.  Flynn built some pretty severe greens with little internal undulations.  There isn't a single Flynn course that doesn't have multiple greens that have lost significant cupping areas because of todays green speeds.  Not saying they all need to be rebuilt but there are some excessive slopes out there. They to have fallen victim to today's speeds. 



It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

mike_malone

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2023, 08:59:40 AM »
 I didn’t intend to have this be RG versus Hollywood. It’s just that’s the Flynn I know intimately. Certainly the slopes are a speed challenge today versus the original but I still think that I prefer reading and putting on a slope versus an artificial bulge in the green.


When I think of the best courses I have played like Pine Valley or even St.Andrews I feel stressed as I approach the green with choices and challenges. So as I work down to very good courses I separate them based on that. I feel more challenge at Lehigh or Huntingdon Valley than at Hollywood .
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 09:18:19 AM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Tim Martin

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2023, 09:45:40 AM »
I didn’t intend to have this be RG versus Hollywood. It’s just that’s the Flynn I know intimately. Certainly the slopes are a speed challenge today versus the original but I still think that I prefer reading and putting on a slope versus an artificial bulge in the green.


When I think of the best courses I have played like Pine Valley or even St.Andrews I feel stressed as I approach the green with choices and challenges. So as I work down to very good courses I separate them based on that. I feel more challenge at Lehigh or Huntingdon Valley than at Hollywood .


Mike-For me the most compelling sets of greens mete out a proportionate mix of slope and contour with both styles compromised at speeds that are too fast. Regardless of how Hollywood and Rolling Green fare in the rankings they are both a joy to play.

mike_malone

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2023, 10:24:01 AM »
Jim,


 I have yet to play an Alison but always see them as similar to Flynn.
AKA Mayday

MCirba

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2023, 10:46:08 AM »
If you want to see Flynn greens with some very cool internal contour I highly recommend seeing McCall across the tracks from Cobbs Creek.   


Otherwise, when I read this thread I'm reminded of Tom Paul's "Big World" theory and find myself happy that such variety in golf course architecture still exists, at least until some dark future when green speeds reach 15+ and have us all putting on greens flatter than a billiards table.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tim Martin

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2023, 11:03:11 AM »

Otherwise, when I read this thread I'm reminded of Tom Paul's "Big World" theory and find myself happy that such variety in golf course architecture still exists, at least until some dark future when green speeds reach 15+ and have us all putting on greens flatter than a billiards table.


Mike-The difference in design styles between these two courses and across the GCA spectrum are what have allowed this site to flourish. Not everyone likes the work of Jim Engh or Desmond Muirhead but the contrast they provide moves both the discussion and the art form.

Sean_A

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2023, 11:21:08 AM »
Jim,


 I have yet to play an Alison but always see them as similar to Flynn.


That is an interesting comparison.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

mike_malone

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2023, 03:33:54 PM »
 I’m fine with a wide world of golf architecture but believe that playability is more valuable than visuals. Another example of Flynn’s challenge idea is his tendency to go along the ridge instead of up and down the hill. This creates challenge through the entire hole.


It probably makes more sense to compare Hollywood to Flynn’s seaside courses where heavy bunkering exists.
AKA Mayday

JNagle

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2023, 06:58:27 PM »
"So as I work down to very good courses I separate them based on that. I feel more challenge at Lehigh or Huntingdon Valley than at Hollywood"  I'm with you on that statement.  There's something special about Flynn greens that require multiple rounds and years to figure out.  To this day #7 at RG fascinates me.  Equal to that is #'s 8 and 14 at Lehigh, #11 at LCC, and so on and so on.
[/size][/color]
[/size]Mike Cirba - truer words have not been spoken.  The mastery of Flynn and his greens designs shines through at McCall.  Short course, great greens.  Superintendent Dave Visocan, an accomplished golfer in his own right, recognized how good McCall members are at putting.  They have to be.  McCall is predicated on the short game and an ability to putt.  A worthy study for any golf architecture fan.  Rolling back the ball means nothing at McCall!! [/color]
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

MCirba

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2023, 09:29:57 AM »
I think routing is where Flynn really shines and all of his courses inevitably have awesome, varied par three holes.   He may very well have been the best of all time at routing, at least in the states.   



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

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Re: Hollywood is classic Travis. Flynn is different.
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2023, 10:36:25 AM »
I think routing is where Flynn really shines and all of his courses inevitably have awesome, varied par three holes.   He may very well have been the best of all time at routing, at least in the states.


Bobby Sterrett just rolled over in his grave.  ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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