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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:raters and "freebees" II
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2003, 01:59:28 PM »
Sorry, the idea that magazines pay qualified raters to rate courses is an intellectual argument that is not practical.

Of the 18,000 courses in the US let's say 5% of them qualify to be considered for any "top" billing lists.  That's 900 courses.  Let's say further that we need some kind of minimum samples or ratings before we can "trust" any average rating generated for a course.  Pick a number; let's arbitrarily say 10 ratings as a minimum.  I now need a minimum of 9000 ratings to fully canvas my 900 courses.  Let's continue by saying that a rater, volunteer or professionally paid magazine rater, is assigned to go out and get 90 of these 9000 ratings.  If they choose the professional rater route, a magazine would now need to hire and pay the expenses for 100 raters.  Assume each rating costs the magazine $50 in reimbursable expenses.  That means that the Top 100 issue for that magazine would cost them in the neighborhood of an added half million dollars – something no magazine can remotely afford.

GW puts out a list each year.  It may surprise some but there are only 65 or so employees in the company.  I don’t know the exact numbers (I don’t work for Golfweek) but GW probably has annual revenues in the $5M range.  I’ll bet any employee suggesting that GW hire 100+ raters for their one issue would quickly find himself in the bread lines.  

Right, wrong or indifferent, volunteer raters is the only practical way to go about golf course ratings.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:raters and "freebees" II
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2003, 02:09:39 PM »
Assume each rating costs the magazine $50 in reimbursable expenses.  That means that the Top 100 issue for that magazine would cost them in the neighborhood of an added half million dollars – something no magazine can remotely afford.


Jonathan,

Those numbers are way low.  The average private course or CCFAD that we rate probably costs $100.  Plus if I am a GW employee, than I get T&E.  Figure $300 for airfare, $100 for hotel and meals plus $100 for greens fees.  It isn't fifty bucks, its $500 per course.  It adds $5,000,000 to the budget and that is without salary and benefits.  :)
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:raters and "freebees" II
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2003, 03:50:53 PM »
David - I know well the numbers are low.  Topsy Siderof and her group process more like 100,000 ratings for the GD lists.  Try computing that expense!  I was just trying to show, even with my artificially low numbers how proposterous the idea, from a practical standpoint, is of employing.  J

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:raters and "freebees" II
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2003, 04:11:37 PM »
Quote
My solution: Reduce the number of raters; assign each of them to rate a list of specific courses, so that no course will have 50 rater visits and another will have 3

Exactly! This is part of what I was trying to say on the other thread. As it stands now, the raters control the system. The magazines do not necessarily have representative numbers from every course that has a realistic chance to make a list. Some might have 50 ballots, some 3. The magazine, not the raters, should decide who plays a course so they can even out the numbers and lessen the burden on the more popular courses that are willing to accept raters as guests.

I have no problem whatsoever with a course allowing a rater play for free. That is part of their marketing budget and is probably a good investment. My primary complaint is that raters are allowed by the magazines to "cold call" courses without being invited to play. This invites abuse and encourages the aggressive rater to "Bag" as many trophies as possible. That's where the problems arise... this competition among raters to be the best and play the most.

And, there is no way you have to rate 900 courses each year in order to maintain a top 100 list. How many courses move on or off a typical list each year? You might have to survey a maximum of 150 courses a year that have a legitimate chance of appearing on a list, and only 50 or so of those are new or revised ones that might need a full blown panel rating. To suggest that you have to play 900 courses every year in order to pick the top 100 is like saying you have to watch 150 college football teams play in order to vote on which ones deserve to be in the top 25. There's only about 40 teams each year that have a realistic shot.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 04:15:00 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:raters and "freebees" II
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2003, 04:34:04 PM »
Ok.  Here's my question..... and I mean no offense by what I am about to ask..... but.....

What is the criteria for becoming a "rater" for Golf Magazine?
What is the criteria for becoming a "rater" for Golf Week?
What is the criteria for becoming a "rater" for Golf Digest?

I think these are VERY important questions to be answered that can expose much of what I think the problem is.  My guess is the #1 important piece of criteria to become a "rater" is .....   who do you know that is already on the panel?  #2 might be.....  what fraternity were you in during college?  

This list of criteria I doubt puts knowledge of golf history or architecture at the top.  Is there a written test for becoming a rater?  A playing test?  How about an etiquette test?

I could be wrong about all of this and I hope I am.  However, I have a sick feeling that the problem with the system of rating may be at the core of how people get on the panels in the first place.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 04:35:45 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:raters and "freebees" II
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2003, 04:43:36 PM »
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ::)

My GCTQOTD draws three replies (one of them mine) yet the two rater threads draw 230 thus far. ???

I suggest all raters identify themselves at KPIII and that each be required to lie prone on the first tee, while some non-rater yells "dog pile on _______________!"  and everyone there pounces on them.  That would be more no silly than this thread.

Regards,

Mike
6'2" / 270 lbs
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 04:46:41 PM by Mike_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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