Darius Oliver shits on Ran

[Michael Whitaker]

Two things. First, raters shouldn’t be talking about wind as part of an assessment unless they have well grounded experience with the course. Many plays over all seasons. Second, should a course be dinged for being unplayable in 40 or 50 mph winds? How many of our great courses become a joke in those conditions?


Ciao

No course is playable in 40mph winds.  It's not whether the course is playable in those winds that's the issue, though.  The issue is the frequency of days where the wind is too strong to play.

Mark, attached is a photo of the anemometer in the R&A on the day we played the Old. Could you hold an Open there that day? No. But aside from a few tricky putts, I had more fun in that round than I can remember. It did settle down a bit on the back to apprx. 30mph, but seeing the course like that made me realise it truly is the greatest course in the world. Because it was so wide, and the greens so large you could actually play and have fun

Tim - I’m glad you had fun in that gale, but that’s not golf. I don’t know what you’d call it, but it’s not golf.


I have the same feeling about going out in heavy rain. One can have fun (in a perverse sort of way), but it’s not golf.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Completely correct, Mike.


I’m not sure if that was calibrated wrong, Tim? Or maybe it just caught the single, highest gust?


But as a hurricane starts at around 70mph, I am very surprised you could stand up in that. And even more amazed you could bring a golf bag with you.


There is a wind beyond which golf can be played property, probably about 25-30mph. There is then a wind beyond which golf can be played at all. And that is considerably less than a constant 65mph.

[Ben Stephens]

I find it beyond belief that a course can be ranked on the list and it has not opened yet. I question the credibility of the rankings and Cape Wickham looks stunning and from my sources its a great course worthy of a top 100 in the world. Could this be personal? you never know only the people who do the rankings know the real story.

[Tim Gallant]

Completely correct, Mike.


I’m not sure if that was calibrated wrong, Tim? Or maybe it just caught the single, highest gust?


But as a hurricane starts at around 70mph, I am very surprised you could stand up in that. And even more amazed you could bring a golf bag with you.


There is a wind beyond which golf can be played property, probably about 25-30mph. There is then a wind beyond which golf can be played at all. And that is considerably less than a constant 65mph.

I do enjoy how, in the face of photographic evidence, the first thought is 'that's not true' 


It wasn't just a gust, and although I found it immensely educational and fun, the fact is that golf was all but called off that day. When we got to the starter's hut, the starter said to the member 'Look, if you get halfway down the first and turn back, I'm not refunding your guest fee.' Three 4irons later, I was at the back of the 1st.


But what I loved is that it was still highly strategic, and I thought, it's probably the only course in the world that you could play in this weather and it still have a complexity to it that was interesting and fun. The highlight was driving greenside on 16. I would never have chosen that line if it wasn't straight down wind, but to do it once in my lifetime was so thrilling. I always used to have Muirfield as my number 1 in Scotland (and it still holds a special place in my heart), but I had to bow to the Old Lady on that day and acknowledge that she has no equals in this country.

[Sean_A]

Completely correct, Mike.


I’m not sure if that was calibrated wrong, Tim? Or maybe it just caught the single, highest gust?


But as a hurricane starts at around 70mph, I am very surprised you could stand up in that. And even more amazed you could bring a golf bag with you.


There is a wind beyond which golf can be played property, probably about 25-30mph. There is then a wind beyond which golf can be played at all. And that is considerably less than a constant 65mph.

I do enjoy how, in the face of photographic evidence, the first thought is 'that's not true' 


It wasn't just a gust, and although I found it immensely educational and fun, the fact is that golf was all but called off that day. When we got to the starter's hut, the starter said to the member 'Look, if you get halfway down the first and turn back, I'm not refunding your guest fee.' Three 4irons later, I was at the back of the 1st.


But what I loved is that it was still highly strategic, and I thought, it's probably the only course in the world that you could play in this weather and it still have a complexity to it that was interesting and fun. The highlight was driving greenside on 16. I would never have chosen that line if it wasn't straight down wind, but to do it once in my lifetime was so thrilling. I always used to have Muirfield as my number 1 in Scotland (and it still holds a special place in my heart), but I had to bow to the Old Lady on that day and acknowledge that she has no equals in this country.

I played Muirfield in 50-60 mph wind because the club rather greedily wouldn’t refund the green fee. Putts into the wind rolled back past the golfer. Bunker shots were pushed back into bunkers by wind…while in the air! We couldn’t reach fairways and just hit to the shortest rough we could see. Wind blew everybody around when trying to swing. It was tough just walking. The course wasn’t playable in any sense of keeping score. All I can say is that it was an experience.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

On fescue, the ball will blow from stationary and not stop until it reaches rough (or a bunker or a stream) at 65mph constant wind.


I love playing in wind. But there’s a wind speed beyond which you are completely fighting your swing. That’s fun once in a while if you are up for a bit of a laugh. But not too often.

[Sean_A]

On fescue, the ball will blow from stationary and not stop until it reaches rough (or a bunker or a stream) at 65mph constant wind.

I love playing in wind. But there’s a wind speed beyond which you are completely fighting your swing. That’s fun once in a while if you are up for a bit of a laugh. But not too often.

To me, a good wind is 10-12mph. Approaching 20mph becomes less fun. 30mph is simply too difficult and even requires quite unique courses to be reasonably playable.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

On fescue, the ball will blow from stationary and not stop until it reaches rough (or a bunker or a stream) at 65mph constant wind.

I love playing in wind. But there’s a wind speed beyond which you are completely fighting your swing. That’s fun once in a while if you are up for a bit of a laugh. But not too often.

To me, a good wind is 10-12mph. Approaching 20mph becomes less fun. 30mph is simply too difficult and even requires quite unique courses to be reasonably playable.


Ciao

Pretty much aligned with that. You are fighting your swing over 20mph with gusts.

[Thomas Dai]

The Belgian racing driver Jackie Ickx, a multiple winner of F1 races and at Le Mans, was famous for his driving in the rain. When asked why he liked driving in the rain he replied that he didn't, that in fact he hated it, but that he knew the other drivers hated it even more.
atb

[Sean_A]

The Belgian racing driver Jackie Ickx, a multiple winner of F1 races and at Le Mans, was famous for his driving in the rain. When asked why he liked driving in the rain he replied that he didn't, that in fact he hated it, but that he knew the other drivers hated it even more.
atb

Did this Belgian race for money or love? 😎


Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

I understand it makes for a nice story to claim having played in 60+ MPH winds, but the preponderance of data and research on this topic shows otherwise.

At 30-40 MPH keeping your balance would be a challenge and 40-50 MPH you would be struggling to walk much less swing a club.  60-70 is right out.

https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/essential-skills/weather-conditions/wind-speeds#:~:text=Attempting%20to%20walk%20in%2060,hill%20as%20soon%20as%20possible.

[Peter Sayegh]

Am I missing something here:  Is this not the same Darius Oliver who was one of the principals in the ratings given to the courses in "The Confidential Guide"? There seems to be an inherent inconsistency in his giving his ratings in a book done with two of the individuals that he is now complaining about. Should we now dismiss his evaluations in "The Confidential Guide" or should we just throw the books away?


Regarding the wind issue one could argue that a rater should not play a course in order to give an evaluation as he/she cannot see all of the critical elements of the course when concentrating on playing the course. Can a rater really evaluate a course built on a windy site if the date he plays the wind is down?

Jerry, I had the same questions.

[Tim Gallant]

Tim,

I understand it makes for a nice story to claim having played in 60+ MPH winds, but the preponderance of data and research on this topic shows otherwise.

At 30-40 MPH keeping your balance would be a challenge and 40-50 MPH you would be struggling to walk much less swing a club.  60-70 is right out.

https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/essential-skills/weather-conditions/wind-speeds#:~:text=Attempting%20to%20walk%20in%2060,hill%20as%20soon%20as%20possible.

Kalen,


That link is about hiking...in the mountains. 


In all seriousness, I'm not saying that golf should be played at 65mph, but I've seen repeated claims that golf is unplayable beyond 30-40mph, which simply is not true (hence the story). 100% it was tough to make a good swing, but we played, and even made a few bogeys on the way out, and a few pars on the way in (downwind). We walked, and actually had a good game. I wouldn't wish it every day, and if it wasn't the Old Course, we might not have gone out. But it was absolutely golf, and we were able to hole out.

[Peter Flory]

Tim,

I understand it makes for a nice story to claim having played in 60+ MPH winds, but the preponderance of data and research on this topic shows otherwise.

At 30-40 MPH keeping your balance would be a challenge and 40-50 MPH you would be struggling to walk much less swing a club.  60-70 is right out.

https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/essential-skills/weather-conditions/wind-speeds#:~:text=Attempting%20to%20walk%20in%2060,hill%20as%20soon%20as%20possible.

The windiest round that I ever had in the US was a day at Old Mac where they said it was sustained 55mph.  On the 1st hole, I would estimate that the furthest drive that anyone hit (all scratch players) was in the 140 yard range, with duck hooking grounders being the best.  On the 2nd hole, we were making 8s.  We made it a few more holes, but then the wind picked up and the balls wouldn't come to rest on greens and we had to quit.  But it was one of the most memorable golfing days I've ever had. 


I may have played a windier round at Elie, but it's hard to say.  With slower greens, it never got to the point where we had to quit.

[Pete_Pittock]

The windiest day I have ever tried to play golf it was near survival mode. Documented by the club secretary, it was Oct 9, 1997 at Royal Cinque Port at 45 mph out of the east. That is at the highest end of what is called a gale, or force 8. Rope hook on 1, driver off deck on 2. A Horatio Hornblower kind of day

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

I understand it makes for a nice story to claim having played in 60+ MPH winds, but the preponderance of data and research on this topic shows otherwise.

At 30-40 MPH keeping your balance would be a challenge and 40-50 MPH you would be struggling to walk much less swing a club.  60-70 is right out.

https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/essential-skills/weather-conditions/wind-speeds#:~:text=Attempting%20to%20walk%20in%2060,hill%20as%20soon%20as%20possible.

The windiest round that I ever had in the US was a day at Old Mac where they said it was sustained 55mph.  On the 1st hole, I would estimate that the furthest drive that anyone hit (all scratch players) was in the 140 yard range, with duck hooking grounders being the best.  On the 2nd hole, we were making 8s.  We made it a few more holes, but then the wind picked up and the balls wouldn't come to rest on greens and we had to quit.  But it was one of the most memorable golfing days I've ever had. 


I may have played a windier round at Elie, but it's hard to say.  With slower greens, it never got to the point where we had to quit.

Peter,


The best golf I ever played was probably at Turnberry in 70-80 MPH wind. The best player in our group was a 2-3 handicap who said he shot about 130.


I managed to shoot 50-42 for a 92 despite the absolutely brutal conditions. It was definitely an experience, but not one I would care to have again.


Dinner at the Turnberry hotel after was much better!

[Mark Pearce]

Two things. First, raters shouldn’t be talking about wind as part of an assessment unless they have well grounded experience with the course. Many plays over all seasons. Second, should a course be dinged for being unplayable in 40 or 50 mph winds? How many of our great courses become a joke in those conditions?


Ciao

No course is playable in 40mph winds.  It's not whether the course is playable in those winds that's the issue, though.  The issue is the frequency of days where the wind is too strong to play.

Mark, attached is a photo of the anemometer in the R&A on the day we played the Old. Could you hold an Open there that day? No. But aside from a few tricky putts, I had more fun in that round than I can remember. It did settle down a bit on the back to apprx. 30mph, but seeing the course like that made me realise it truly is the greatest course in the world. Because it was so wide, and the greens so large you could actually play and have fun

Tim,


My first job was in wind tunnels.  Scientifically calibrated.  Accurate.  At a wind speed of 50mph, it is not possible to walk without leaning into the wind acutely and bracing.  You cannot stand straight (at least I couldn't, then, and I was very fit at the time).  You certainly couldn't swing a golf club.  That anemometer reading suggests gale force winds (and winds that would cause damage to property).  I hate to break it to you, but you did not play golf in 65mph winds.


Mark

[Charlie Goerges]

Gives a decent rundown of what effects of wind are:

https://www.weather.gov/media/pqr/wind/wind.pdf

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you Mark and Charlie for introducing more objectiveness into the thread. Wind speed also varies with height and elevation and seemingly with temperature. Then there are wind eddies and currents and funnels and sheltered spots to consider. Lots of variables in addition to the likely somewhat subjective human perceptions including that of the ‘I’ve played in a stronger wind than you have nah, nah, nah’ Four Yorkshiremen sketch type variety.


Atb

[Ira Fishman]

I tried to post the photo of the “Weather Gauge” outside Russack’s but of course no luck.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Is wind speed the new stimp meter reading? 

I played Turnberry (pre-Trump) on a day when almost every other course in the area was closed due to high winds. I nearly drove #1 with a hybrid, but on the sixth or something it took three solid 3I to reach the very front fringe. The holes were about the same length. It was probably 35 MPH that day. You could lean about 30° over and the wind held you up.

[Michael Moore]

I played Gullane #1 in 35 MPH winds. My 37-inch clubs were usable but anything longer than that, especially with a graphite shaft, started to move around noticeably at the top of the backswing. I couldn't trust it. To my great astonishment the guy I was paired with shot 83.

[Tony Ristola]

If Darius is correct, putting a course on a list that hasn't opened isn't a good look, especially considering the seeming conflict of interest. But, from taking in bits and pieces over the decades, Ran seems like a most solid guy. We're human and all flub one once in a while. Life goes on.


Perhaps there should be a 2-year wait after Opening Day before a course can enter the list.

[Joe_Tucholski]

If Darius is correct, putting a course on a list that hasn't opened isn't a good look, especially considering the seeming conflict of interest. But, from taking in bits and pieces over the decades, Ran seems like a most solid guy. We're human and all flub one once in a while. Life goes on.


Perhaps there should be a 2-year wait after Opening Day before a course can enter the list.

Tony I think a waiting period makes good sense.  I've played a few courses within a year of opening and they can be very different a couple years down the road after the construction team hands over the maintenance (better or worse).

[Ally Mcintosh]

If Darius is correct, putting a course on a list that hasn't opened isn't a good look, especially considering the seeming conflict of interest. But, from taking in bits and pieces over the decades, Ran seems like a most solid guy. We're human and all flub one once in a while. Life goes on.


Perhaps there should be a 2-year wait after Opening Day before a course can enter the list.

Tony I think a waiting period makes good sense.  I've played a few courses within a year of opening and they can be very different a couple years down the road after the construction team hands over the maintenance (better or worse).

This isn’t a bad idea. It also gives the hype a chance to die down.


I now refuse to buy a debut album by a new band, no matter how many superlatives are thrown at it with initial reviews. I’ll go back and buy the debut once the follow-up gets equally lauded.