Sedge Valley

[Matthew Lloyd]

To chime in on the pace of play…


Was part of a foursome on Saturday August 3 mid-morning. We never had to wait and were never pushed - and played a relaxed round. It took us exactly 4 hours. But we didn’t hurry once and tried to take in the course and environs. It was an ideal walk and we loved the course.


Skill level in the group included two excellent golfers, one above average golfer (me) and one ultra casual golfer who plays 3-4 rounds per year but loves to see new places. We were all able to enjoy the course equally.


I found personally that having one par five really built the anticipation - especially when placed right before a drivable par 4.


Feel lucky to have played the course in its first month of open play.

[jeffwarne]

It’s America Tom!  4 extra shots at 5 minutes per adds up to 20 minutes.

By coincidence, for something unrelated, the superintendent of Sedge Valley called me this afternoon.


I asked him about pace of play and he said it's been outstanding.  They went with 12-minute tee times this year to hold back a little of the wear and tear on new grass, and he reported that there really haven't been hold-ups through the stretch of short holes from 5-8, or almost anywhere on the course.  The one exception is that people who drive it right on 16 take a long time to sort out their approach shots.

It is incredibly common for people to conflate "pace of play" with "no waiting".
I'd be curious to know if they have records of how long rounds actually took, rather than anecdotal reports of less hold ups.
12 minute tee times are wonderful and no doubt reduce "waiting" and leave a great amount of wiggle room for management.
BUT, sometimes the lack of immediate pressure from behind, or the loss of sight of the group in front, leads a group to play a bit more slowly, especially at a once in a lifetime destination.
They simply lose track of time.
Our slowest rounds occur on our slowest(as in least amount of play) days-usually in the fall or early spring.
On a busy July/August day, pace is brisk as awareness of peer pressure from behind, and sight of the group in front keeps people moving.

[Tom_Doak]

It is incredibly common for people to conflate "pace of play" with "no waiting".
I'd be curious to know if they have records of how long rounds actually took, rather than anecdotal reports of less hold ups.
12 minute tee times are wonderful and no doubt reduce "waiting" and leave a great amount of wiggle room for management.
BUT, sometimes the lack of immediate pressure from behind, or the loss of sight of the group in front, leads a group to play a bit more slowly, especially at a once in a lifetime destination.
They simply lose track of time.
Our slowest rounds occur on our slowest(as in least amount of play) days-usually in the fall or early spring.
On a busy July/August day, pace is brisk as awareness of peer pressure from behind, and sight of the group in front keeps people moving.

Jeff:


All true, but isn't that a "distinction without a difference?"  Pace of play is important when you have a lot of people out there, but not so much otherwise.


I can assure you they are keeping track of how long the rounds are taking.  The only number I've heard [from three sources now] is "four hours," which is vague enough that I haven't taken it literally.

[jeffwarne]

It is incredibly common for people to conflate "pace of play" with "no waiting".
I'd be curious to know if they have records of how long rounds actually took, rather than anecdotal reports of less hold ups.
12 minute tee times are wonderful and no doubt reduce "waiting" and leave a great amount of wiggle room for management.
BUT, sometimes the lack of immediate pressure from behind, or the loss of sight of the group in front, leads a group to play a bit more slowly, especially at a once in a lifetime destination.
They simply lose track of time.
Our slowest rounds occur on our slowest(as in least amount of play) days-usually in the fall or early spring.
On a busy July/August day, pace is brisk as awareness of peer pressure from behind, and sight of the group in front keeps people moving.

Jeff:


All true, but isn't that a "distinction without a difference?"  Pace of play is important when you have a lot of people out there, but not so much otherwise.


I can assure you they are keeping track of how long the rounds are taking.  The only number I've heard [from three sources now] is "four hours," which is vague enough that I haven't taken it literally.

It can be a distinction without a difference yes, and of course rounds without backups are a joyous thing.
How long the rounds take in real time would seem essential at a resort, where time for lunch has to be taken into account, to make sure the player can comfortably arrive for his second tee time of the day.


In our slowest shoulder season times, we still need a reasonable pace of play as we are trying to run lean on caddies, to convince the few that stick around in the shoulder season, to continue to stick around.
An 8:30 shoulder season visiting fourball, enjoying their day out, under minimal stress from groups behind, that returns at 1:45 due to an uncrowded morning can throw a wrench into scheduling for caddies when trying to run lean and spin them into what might be a busy afternoon.
Of course that's simply (mis) management on our part .
There is no question that the fastest rounds by walking 4 balls on a large hilly property(3:45-4 hours) occur on busy days with pressure and visibility from behind, and ever present staff assisting with pace.

[Bill Seitz]

As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution.  Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes.   Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.

I would love to hear more about this. I didn't have that perception at all from when I was there last year. Other than a few holes, if others are uphill on the approach, it seemed pretty slight to me. Maybe being really hot conditions amplified the impression.

Interesting, and I am trying to think whether Michael is right.


Partly it depends on where you are driving the ball.


The holes that DO have uphill approaches are 1, 3, 14, and 16.


On many of the others, if you hit a good tee shot you're pretty level with the green, but if you pull it left on 2, or fan one right on 4 [or 6], or hit it over the plateau on 10, or hit a short tee shot on 12, or go left on 18, all of those approach shots become uphill.  I've never really thought about it like that.

I had uphill approaches on 2 (from the right bunker after landing just left center of the fairway), 3, 4 (from the right), 14, and 16.  12 felt a little uphill from the tee, and 11, I had an uphill lie, but not sure the shot was really uphill.  1 actually felt pretty flat in my recollection.

[Bill Seitz]

...the questions I'm most interested in are:


1.  Were people bothered by the inclusion of only one par-5 hole, or were they not missed?  And,


2.  How long did it take to play vs. the other courses at the resort?

Not bothered at all.  I adjusted my expectation for score going in (I'm usually happy breaking 80, set my goal for Sedge at 75, and shot 70), so I had an idea what to expect, but didn't feel like anything was lacking after the round.  We played the back tee markers, but not all the way back on the tee boxes.


I can't recall how long it took us to play, but it was under four hours, and would have been much faster if we hadn't caught another group around 11-12 that were not playing fast. 

[Stephen Davis]

I just posted on the Lido thread about my experience there. I figured I would do the same here. I just came back from my first trip to see Sedge Valley and I loved the place. It felt so wonderful and intimate, much like the way walking a round at Bandon Trails feels. The holes were wonderfully imaginative fun and exactly what the resort needed. I would be shocked if it wasn't the resounding favorite course at the resort (excluding Lido, but maybe even including it because I think people are going to be much more divided in their feelings on Lido).


Certain parts of the property felt so magical and if I had the course to myself, I would find myself just hanging out and hitting different shots all day. It is a very comfortable and easy walk, which is very important considering the big walks of Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes. It is by no means an easy course, despite it being "shorter". In fact, it is a much more exacting test than either Sand Valley and especially Mammoth Dunes. That being said, it is a treat to play and I preferred it over the other two courses by a very wide margin. Kudos to Tom and the Renaissance team for building something extremely special.

[Stewart Abramson]

I just came back from my first trip to see Sedge Valley and I loved the place. It felt so wonderful and intimate... The holes were wonderfully imaginative fun and exactly what the resort needed. I would be shocked if it wasn't the resounding favorite course at the resort (excluding Lido, but maybe even including it because I think people are going to be much more divided in their feelings on Lido)...

Kudos to Tom and the Renaissance team for building something extremely special.

I just got back from 4 days at Sand Valley. I played the four main courses but was too tired to play the Sandbox after walking 36 a day. (I'm in my 70's). I should probably gather my thoughts before posting anything, but can't wait, so here are a few preliminary things:

1. I agree with everything I quoted from Stephen D above.

2. Re: the earlier discussion about uphill holes - I have no idea what the overall uphill and downhill numbers are, but the stats posted above trying to quantify the hilliness are not necessary. There are a bunch of uphill shots to be played (3, 4,6,12,14,16, and 18, as well as some slightly uphill par 3's (7,8), perhaps depending on which tees one plays from.

3. 3,6,12 and 18 were among my favorite holes.

4. For me, the greens played very different than at the Lido. The greens on Lido were extremely difficult for me to hold or get close to the majority of pins, Whereas, many of the greens on Sedge had backboards or sideboards that you could use to get the ball close to the hole.

5. Re: pace of play - The tee sheet was full. We played in about 4 hrs 15 minutes. Never saw the group behind us, but were in constant site the group ahead of us, but only had to wait on them a few times.

6. Loved the par 3's

7. Didn't really remind me of an English heath except when I let mind view the holes with the wild grasses and dark flora as mimicking heather, but I never hit a ball into that stuff at Sedge but fairly often visit the heather in England. #7 did sort of remind me of a par 3 at St Georges Hill.

8. Difficult decision deciding whether to play Sedge twice or Lido twice. Sedge because it was so much fun or Lido to see if I might have learned some things that would prevent me from getting beaten up so badly.

9. Take a day to play Lawsonia Links. Worth the 90 minute drive from Sand Valley at less than half the green fee

Link to Sedge Valley Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72177720320337655/

Photos of favorite uphill holes:


Sedge Valley #3  blind uphill approach to green behind bunker left



Sedge Valley #6 uphill pitch to green



Sedge Valley #12 short uphill par 4



Sedge Valley #18

[Tom_Doak]

7. Didn't really remind me of an English heath except when I let mind view the holes with the wild grasses and dark flora as mimicking heather, but I never hit a ball into that stuff at Sedge but fairly often visit the heather in England. #7 did sort of remind me of a par 3 at St Georges Hill.

I am sad to say that if Sedge Valley had been wall to wall heather to start with, they would cut it back to the point where you never got in it, due to some combination of "pace of play" and wanting the customer to be happy.

[Stewart Abramson]

Link to Fried Egg's excellent new video interview with TD about designing Sedge:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF7dHC_MP0M

[Jeff Fortson]

Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.

[Tom_Doak]

I did get to go back with my associates and play Sedge Valley a couple of days in late September, courtesy of Michael Keiser.  We had a blast, playing five balls the first day and three balls on day 2.


Pace of play was awesome, as the resort stuck to 12-minute tee times at Sedge this year so as not to wear it out, as opposed to 10-minute gaps on the other courses.  The difference was amazing . . . but they were giving up significant revenue to do that, so I doubt it will continue long-term.


I did not worry about the lack of par-5's at any point, though that's in character for me.  The only par-5, #11, was one of my sleeper favorite holes.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.

Like what? And how will any of them overcome the human element ("I'm not slow" or "I paid good money to play here, if it takes me five hours, then that's what I paid for." or the more polite sounding but still bad "Why would I want to rush through a round of golf?")?

[Kevin_Reilly]

Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.

Like what? And how will any of them overcome the human element ("I'm not slow" or "I paid good money to play here, if it takes me five hours, then that's what I paid for." or the more polite sounding but still bad "Why would I want to rush through a round of golf?")?

I heard the same thing about changes to MLB.  "What better place do you want to be instead of the ballpark?"  Etc.  Hopeful that Jeff is correct.

[Jeff Fortson]

Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.

Like what? And how will any of them overcome the human element ("I'm not slow" or "I paid good money to play here, if it takes me five hours, then that's what I paid for." or the more polite sounding but still bad "Why would I want to rush through a round of golf?")?

It might not work at every facility across the board, but there are courses using certain GPS based technology that have shown proven results in improving PoP if the staff uses it correctly.  In particular, Tagmarshall comes to mind as an example.  I have sat in multiple presentations by that company with current users of their technology and each one was able to improve their PoP.  Some by as much as 20-30 minutes.  That doesn't mean they won't have occasional groups or people that feel entitled and don't respond to requests. 


The technology gives the operator the ability to communicate with groups remotely, has a live map of where every cart/group is at on the course with real time information on each group's pace of play, and can be set up to inform the customer where they currently stand in regards to their group's pace.  The technology can be used at walking only courses through a chip that one of the caddies or players carries (like an AirTag) or at courses that use golf carts through a GPS system.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I heard the same thing about changes to MLB.  "What better place do you want to be instead of the ballpark?"  Etc.  Hopeful that Jeff is correct.

I didn't (I'd heard for years that baseball games were taking too long), and there's a big difference between watching others play versus playing yourself.

It might not work at every facility across the board, but there are courses using certain GPS based technology that have shown proven results in improving PoP if the staff uses it correctly.  In particular, Tagmarshall comes to mind as an example.  I have sat in multiple presentations by that company with current users of their technology and each one was able to improve their PoP.  Some by as much as 20-30 minutes.

That doesn't mean they won't have occasional groups or people that feel entitled and don't respond to requests.  The technology gives the operator the ability to communicate with groups remotely, has a live map of where every cart/group is at on the course with real time information on each group's pace of play, and can be set up to inform the customer where they currently stand in regards to their group's pace.  The technology can be used at walking only courses through a chip that one of the caddies or players carries (like an AirTag) or at courses that use golf carts through a GPS system.

That kind of stuff has been around for over a decade, so I don't know that it's suddenly going to start making a big difference. (Also, it doesn't do a lot if you're not in a cart.) I'm glad you're optimistic, though.

[Andy Johnson]

Link to Fried Egg's excellent new video interview with TD about designing Sedge:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF7dHC_MP0M

I saw in a thread about if GCA is dead (it isn't, a wonderful place that has inspired a lot of innovation, creativity and thinking from others), a long time poster, Jeff Brauer suggest (multiple times) that Fried Egg has done nothing original. 

[Simon Barrington]

Deleted (moved to another Thread which is more relevant, rather than taking this one off on a tangent)

[Ian Mackenzie]

I did get to go back with my associates and play Sedge Valley a couple of days in late September, courtesy of Michael Keiser.  We had a blast, playing five balls the first day and three balls on day 2.


Pace of play was awesome, as the resort stuck to 12-minute tee times at Sedge this year so as not to wear it out, as opposed to 10-minute gaps on the other courses.  The difference was amazing . . . but they were giving up significant revenue to do that, so I doubt it will continue long-term.


I did not worry about the lack of par-5's at any point, though that's in character for me.  The only par-5, #11, was one of my sleeper favorite holes.

Played an annual tourney last week in 7th year: 8 guys from our club v. 8 caddies and pros from Sand Valley in a Ryder Cup type format.


First round on Sedge, PM spin around SandBox then round on Lido the next am.


Played two 9-hole matches on Sedge against both caddies and SV pros/managers. Caddies said Sedge serves up some of the slowest rounds due to:


1. Routing has a par 3, drivable par 4, then short par 3 and another longer par 3 (consecutively) on front 9 that just kills pace of play.
2. Unlike the other courses, Sedge has a ton of deep grass adjacent to fairways and greens so guests lose a ton of balls.
3. Back 9 has a reachable par 5 (if you can hold the green!!) , very short drivable par 4 and then a par 3 consecutively that also creates bottle necks.


Side notes:


- caddies up there are serious players...as in +5, +4. +3....we got smoked this year. We beat the pros and "managers", but caddies were way too good. (Adam, Southie, Hutch especially!)
- 16 of us played SandBox and we had 3 holes in ONE!!!! No one had ever seen that.

[Dan Gallaway]

Which tees do the majority play from?  My assumption is most guests play from the Back tees (5829yds, 68.3/129).  From those tees, my 14.7 becomes a Course Hcp of 17.  Seems most people I encounter will look at the yardage and head to those back tees without regard for how difficult it will be for them, and therefore, a slower round. 


When I took my group to Gearhart, they were a little hesitant to play from the 6100yd tees as they immediately assumed the 6500yd option was where they were headed.  They were really surprised when they discovered that I had set the tournament up to be played from the 5700yd set....and everyone had a blast.


My guess is that a significant percentage of the golfers should be playing at the 4700 tees?

[Tom_Doak]

My guess is that a significant percentage of the golfers should be playing at the 4700 tees?

That's an overstatement.  Four shots less par translates into about 600 yards on the scorecard . . . so you can play back at Sedge if you're used to playing at 6700 yards, and you should play at 5400 if you're used to playing around 6000.

[Simon Barrington]

"That's an overstatement.  Four shots less par translates into about 600 yards on the scorecard . . . so you can play back at Sedge if you're used to playing at 6700 yards, and you should play at 5400 if you're used to playing around 6000."

Spot on, so many are still locked into the Par 72 mentality (and 7000+yds for Men) which I applaud you trying to break at Sedge Valley.


They just don't understand shorter courses can be as challenging (vs. Par which is a blunt relative measure of difficulty)

My Home Club (Henley GC, James Braid 1907) has 6x Par 3's on a Par 70 layout with yardage of 6300yds from the "tips" (White)
N.B. Virtually no change over almost 120yrs, as course in on only 90 acres of useable chalk downland.

The reason very few take it apart (& we have had 12 Open Champions play it over the years) is it effectively plays 6800-7050yds, if it only had 4x or perhaps 3x Par 3's as many other "longer" courses do.

Nevermind the underlying strategic variety, architectural innovation, fun & challenge Braid produced in 1907 that is still relevant.

It is also why it still plays too long for the women golfers as current yardage is 5381yds (Red) & 4964yds (Green - newly added this year as we moved to shared "Gender Neutral" Tees) which effectively play to c.5800-6000yds & c.5350-5550yds (respectively) elsewhere.

Cheers

[Thomas Dai]

I seem to recall a thread discussion herein suggesting that a persons optimum 18-hole yardage is their 5-iron carry multiplied by 36, ie say 150 x 36 = 5,400.
Just a recollection.
Atb

[Sean_A]

I seem to recall a thread discussion herein suggesting that a persons optimum 18-hole yardage is their 5-iron carry multiplied by 36, ie say 150 x 36 = 5,400.
Just a recollection.
Atb

Yes, something like this is my recollection. The concept works well for me.

Ciao