[Jim Tang]

Tom, would you say Ballyneal has retained it's firmness over time? I've been going there since nearly the beginning and feel it's still very firm and fast, especially in the fall.


I played Sedge Valley in July and it's my favorite of the four courses at the resort. The fun factor is off the charts.

[Tom_Doak]

About the only one of my courses that has maintained its exceptional firmness 5+ years into play is The Loop . . . the ball still runs onto greens and off the back of greens there.

Tom, would you say Ballyneal has retained it's firmness over time? I've been going there since nearly the beginning and feel it's still very firm and fast, especially in the fall.

Jim:

Unfortunately, I don't get back to some places as much as I'd like, but you were right to correct me. 

The Loop is crazy firm and fast, unlike anything else in my part of the country, and I had just come off it the other day.  But, places like Ballyneal, The National [Australia], and The Renaissance Club have kept the firmness and speed in their fairways over time, too.  It's just more of the norm in those places.

[Mike Hendren]

Now that’s a true minimalist post.

[Tom_Doak]

Now that’s a true minimalist post.

Thanks for pointing out the sizing error.  I still don't understand what causes them sometimes.

[Kalen Braley]

I've been following the comments and am specifically interested in the elevation perceptions.  I went to Google Earth and took 3 measurements per hole:
 
1)  Elevation of the middle tee where most might play from (as best as I could determine)
2)  The lowest point found nearest the middle of the fairway between tee and green that would typically be walked.  This may not necessarily be where one plays their approach from, but wanted to explore Mike's comment that he felt most holes played uphill (On par 3s, this measurement is the lowest point in the walk to the green)
3)  The elevation of the middle of each green.
 
** (Holes 9-14 are not complete in Google Earth, but for the most part it does appears shaped.  As such these are fairly rough measurements)
 
Observations:
On 10 of the holes, it’s a net drop in overall elevation from tee to green.
6 holes have a net gain of 10 feet or less tee to green.
2 holes have a significant net gain, (14 and 18 are over 30 feet)
 
Additionally:
16 of 18 holes play downhill from the tee thru some part of the fairway (or the walk thru a low area on a par 3)
On 10 of these 16 holes the downhill walk is more than 20 feet lower than the tee.
For 5 of these prior 10, the walk is more than 30 feet downhill.
 
However…
15 of 18 greens are also uphill from the lowest part of the fairway (or dip on a par 3) as you walk from tee to green.
On 8 of those 15 holes, the green is 15 feet or higher from the lowest point.
 
Given this data, It certainly seems plausible that personal experiences may vary while playing Sedge.  While nearly every hole goes down from the tee at some point (16), nearly the same (15) go up from the lowest point back to the green. Two holes, 12 and 14, appear to play uphill the entire way. (18 could be same, depending on which route you take)
 
Thoughts?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Thanks for pointing out the sizing error.  I still don't understand what causes them sometimes.

Apathy. 

[Tom_Doak]

Additionally:
16 of 18 holes play downhill from the tee thru some part of the fairway (or the walk thru a low area on a par 3)
On 10 of these 16 holes the downhill walk is more than 20 feet lower than the tee.
For 5 of these prior 10, the walk is more than 30 feet downhill.
 
However…
15 of 18 greens are also uphill from the lowest part of the fairway (or dip on a par 3) as you walk from tee to green.
On 8 of those 15 holes, the green is 15 feet or higher from the lowest point.
 
. . .
 
Thoughts?

Kalen:


I appreciate your trying to find a way to quantify the walkability of a course.  The data doesn't help much unless there are lots of other courses used for comparison, and I'm not sure it will change anyone's feelings about how difficult a walk they had.


But, by definition, isn't the green nearly always going to be above the lowest point of the fairway?  I guess not for the Dell at Lahinch, but it's pretty rare to see a hole that falls all the way from tee to green.

[Kalen Braley]

Additionally:
16 of 18 holes play downhill from the tee thru some part of the fairway (or the walk thru a low area on a par 3)
On 10 of these 16 holes the downhill walk is more than 20 feet lower than the tee.
For 5 of these prior 10, the walk is more than 30 feet downhill.
 
However…
15 of 18 greens are also uphill from the lowest part of the fairway (or dip on a par 3) as you walk from tee to green.
On 8 of those 15 holes, the green is 15 feet or higher from the lowest point.
 
. . .
 
Thoughts?

Kalen:

I appreciate your trying to find a way to quantify the walkability of a course.  The data doesn't help much unless there are lots of other courses used for comparison, and I'm not sure it will change anyone's feelings about how difficult a walk they had.

But, by definition, isn't the green nearly always going to be above the lowest point of the fairway?  I guess not for the Dell at Lahinch, but it's pretty rare to see a hole that falls all the way from tee to green.

Tom,


Valid points all around.  This is my first attempt at such exercise, that I mostly did out of curiosity to try to better understand the varying perceptions of the walk.  Perhaps I'll try another course like Pac Dunes, which is generally regarded as flat...


P.S. You can certainly correct me here, but I have 8 and 13 at Sedge being more or less downhill all the way...

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  Here is the raw data i aggregated in a xls with a few calculations.  Negative numbers are downhill, positive up.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Valid points all around.  This is my first attempt at such exercise, that I mostly did out of curiosity to try to better understand the varying perceptions of the walk.  Perhaps I'll try another course like Pac Dunes, which is generally regarded as flat...

P.S. You can certainly correct me here, but I have 8 and 13 at Sedge being more or less downhill all the way...

Pacific Dunes has a lot of green sites like 4, 11, and 12, where the green is at the base of a dune and then you walk up to the next tee.  It's easier to do that on a site with small, abrupt elevation changes like that, than on rolling topography like Sand Valley.


Yes, 8 at Sedge is downhill almost all the way to the green.  [There is a bit of a hollow short and right of the green to detain all the water in a storm.]  A few of the numbers in your chart seem off to me.  There is no way that the 17th hole is 28 feet uphill from any point to the green, and it is certainly downhill more than twelve feet overall, and I don't think the 10th or 11th has that much variation, either [although 11 could be a fooler, since it's so long].


In the end, I'm happy for some people to say it's a tougher walk than they expected, and maybe the walkability is only 7/10.  I doubt it's worse than Sand Valley or Mammoth Dunes . . . if you're going to crunch some numbers, maybe start with those?

[Tim_Weiman]

P.S.  Here is the raw data i aggregated in a xls with a few calculations.  Negative numbers are downhill, positive up.

Kalen,


I agree with Tom that your attempt to quantify walkability is interesting, but it is a little hard to relate the numbers to courses I’ve played.


Wish I had your Google Earth skills.

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Tim,

There would certainly be lots of variability depending on the course.  Once again, Sedge only peaked my interest due to the varying viewpoints.

As a reference point, I measured a hole we're all familiar with: ANGC #10.

Tee box = 317 feet elevation
Lowest point in fairway on path to green = 207
Elevation of middle of green = 216

So in this case you will descend approx 110 feet to lowest point of fairway, and then walk back up 9 feet to the green, for a net drop of 101 feet from tee to green.

[Kalen Braley]

I took a few more data points on SV 17 and graphed them to show the approx. elevation differentials.

The Y axis is Elevation, X Axis is approx. distance from tee.

So while the net difference from tee to green is only -12 feet, at one point the golfer will descend 40 feet from tee, and walk back up 28 feet to the green.

[Peter Flory]

One thing to note on google earth is that they don't update the elevations as often as the imagery.  On the Lido, for instance, none of the sculpting shows up in google earth yet- just the natural terrain before it was flattened and then sculpted.  So, for Sedge, it will also just show the elevations of the land before golf construction.

For courses where the terrain has been updated, you can make a "path" and then select "show elevation profile" and it will graph the elevations along your path. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Hey Tim,

There would certainly be lots of variability depending on the course.  Once again, Sedge only peaked my interest due to the varying viewpoints.

As a reference point, I measured a hole we're all familiar with: ANGC #10.

Tee box = 317 feet elevation
Lowest point in fairway on path to green = 207
Elevation of middle of green = 216

So in this case you will descend approx 110 feet to lowest point of fairway, and then walk back up 9 feet to the green, for a net drop of 101 feet from tee to green.

Kalen,


Thanks. I remember walking ANGC #10 backwards one time. That is when the elevation change really stood out.


Felt more uphill than playing #18.


Again, I do think your methodology is interesting, but the numbers may have different meaning for different players or for the same player at different times in their life.


In a recent thread, I mentioned playing Manakiki, a Ross design in Cleveland that is pretty hilly. Forty years ago I used to walk it carry my bag and not think twice about it. Today I’m not sure I would enjoy it without a cart, something I hate to say.


Tim

[Mike Hendren]

I regret my casual observation has led to a debate on the course’s rather reasonable elevation changes.  The course is a conceptual and architectural gem that deserves a more comprehensible and thorough analysis (which isn’t my forte).


Let’s go there.

[Tim_Weiman]

I regret my casual observation has led to a debate on the course’s rather reasonable elevation changes.  The course is a conceptual and architectural gem that deserves a more comprehensible and thorough analysis (which isn’t my forte).


Let’s go there.

Mike,


One never knows where threads will go. That said, I am really looking forward to seeing and playing Sedge Valley exactly for the reasons you suggest.


Tim

[Peter Flory]

Sedge in the early morning is a great experience.

[Tom_Doak]

I regret my casual observation has led to a debate on the course’s rather reasonable elevation changes.  The course is a conceptual and architectural gem that deserves a more comprehensible and thorough analysis (which isn’t my forte).

Let’s go there.

Mike:


No need to apologize, but the questions I'm most interested in are:


1.  Were people bothered by the inclusion of only one par-5 hole, or were they not missed?  And,


2.  How long did it take to play vs. the other courses at the resort?

[Colin Sheehan]

A question I would be interested to know is: since the golf course still has a total footprint in the low 200 acres, does it have a smaller maintenance staff or budget of the other two?

[Mike Hendren]

Tom, I don’t think anyone noticed, much less cared. The only issue for me is are you being challenged and/or having fun.


Not sure but guessing right at 4 hours, no waiting.  I’d say 20 minutes shorter than normal.

[Tom_Doak]

Not sure but guessing right at 4 hours, no waiting.  I’d say 20 minutes shorter than normal.

If there was no waiting, why did it take four hours??

[Tom_Doak]

A question I would be interested to know is: since the golf course still has a total footprint in the low 200 acres, does it have a smaller maintenance staff or budget of the other two?

It's probably a year early to say, as the course is still in grow-in mode, but I will try to find out your answer at the end of this season.  I'd guess the budget is somewhat smaller since both the greens and the fairways are 10% - 15% smaller than the other courses, but with fescue fairways the cost difference is not as great as it would be for other situations.

[Mike Hendren]

It’s America Tom!  4 extra shots at 5 minutes per adds up to 20 minutes.


Like a 5% office market vacancy rate, the requirement of a par 71/72 golf course is a myth. 

[Tom_Doak]

It’s America Tom!  4 extra shots at 5 minutes per adds up to 20 minutes.
[size=78%] [/size]

By coincidence, for something unrelated, the superintendent of Sedge Valley called me this afternoon.


I asked him about pace of play and he said it's been outstanding.  They went with 12-minute tee times this year to hold back a little of the wear and tear on new grass, and he reported that there really haven't been hold-ups through the stretch of short holes from 5-8, or almost anywhere on the course.  The one exception is that people who drive it right on 16 take a long time to sort out their approach shots.

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