[Joel_Stewart]

To:  Joel


I'm fascinated by your love for the 18th at SV (for me, there were several holes I liked better at SV).  What about that hole made you love it so much?


THX,


TS

Multiple options off the tee, a short blind second shot and a really unique green. 

[Nigel Islam]

Sedge Valley might be the perfect compliment to the other golf courses. I am still not super fond of the name, but it’s growing on me.

[Bill Seitz]

I played Sedge Valley on Sunday and absolutely loved it.  Mammoth may be easier, but I played Thursday pretty much right out of the car, and kind of fell apart toward the end.  On the other hand, I played Sedge after playing 81 holes with hickories between Thursday afternoon through Saturday, and the transition back to modern (if 2007 can be considered modern) made Sedge play MUCH easier.  I really liked the way the holes just draped over the land.  There is width, but it can be deceptive.  Three of us hit balls that looked like they were down the middle on the second, and we all ended up in various spots of bother off to the right.  And while we all knew that it was just overall shorter version of a standard course, the yardage plays with your mindset to the point that a 460 yard par 4 into the wind at 3 is a real slap in the face, in a great way.  My subconscious told me that it should be easy, and while I can sometimes be intimidated by new courses, that helped make me play it like it was easy for the first seven holes until some bogeys around the turn forced me to kick it back into gear.  I almost feel like it would get harder the next time I play it.


After three days playing and walking through a lot of sand, the large expanses of grassy native were a wonderful change of pace.  The greens felt much more intimate than at Mammoth or Lido, but I still walked away thinking about how different the course could play with different pins.  We had a back right pin on 15, and that looks like it would make it an entirely different hole than with a front left pin.  9, 12, 14, and 18 are other holes that immediately come to mind where a different pin could make if feel like a different course on back to back days.  Whereas Mammoth and Lido have plenty of places to put pins in different places on their greens, Sedge felt like it had the ability to put pins in not just different, but unique locations. 


And I mean this with the best of intentions, so I hope Tom doesn't take it the wrong way, but it felt a lot like Kingsley to me.  I don't mean that it was at all influenced by Kingsley, but given that I play more of my golf at Kingsley than anywhere else, Sedge felt like a place I had been before, and asked for shots that I had played before.  The tee shot on 15 to the back right pin felt comfortable (which doesn't mean easy) because it wasn't unlike shots I've played into multiple holes at Kingsley (1, 4, 5, 12, 16).  I hit a perfect five iron well left of the flag that flew past pin high, caught the back slope, and made its way back to about 12 feet (missed the putt). 


12 is a marvelous short par four that set up perfectly for my middling length.  My driver cut beautifully to the front of the green, and there was a moment of excitement when it disappeared, due to a devilish swale that none of us knew was there, until it reappeared about 15 feet from the hole (missed that putt, too).  Two others in our group longer than me couldn't dial it back, ran it over the green on the tips of the 13th tee.


I didn't play great at Mammoth and would love another shot at it, but I were there all the time, I'd rather play Sedge much more often.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:


Your review helped clarify something for me in the difference between my approach to design vs David Kidd’s.


People use the terms ‘hard’ and ‘easy’ a lot, but their use is mostly geared to individual expectations and to their own games.


Both Sedge Valley and Mammoth Dunes offer the possibility of a very low score - Mammoth because it’s very forgiving, Sedge because you are starting at 68 and there are certainly some birdie opportunities.  But to me, the difference is that Sedge Valley makes you earn that low score - a really bad shot will lead to bogey or worse, even on some of the shortest holes.  You might catch a break and get away with a mistake, but that next shot is probably going to have to be a very good one.


I just don’t have that same sense with Mammoth Dunes - the scale is so big that even a bad drive frequently results in an easy approach, especially for longer hitters.  And I get why lots of people enjoy that.  But it’s just not how I was raised 

[Ronald Montesano]

Can't wait to see Lido and Sedge.

Can specific hole locations on Mammoth take away the advantage of the easy approach as mentioned above?

I found that the added width was part of the temptation factor, that made Mammoth great. You rear back for a big drive and hit a sh!t one. You make bogey or double and say I'll get it back on the next hole. You rear back and rinse/repeat and now you have two big numbers, and I ain't talking drive yardage. I would guess that Sedge is the perfect counterpoint to Mammoth. That's one thing that separates SV from Bandon. There are no opposite courses at Bandon, but I get the sense that either Lido or Mammoth could be considered the polar opposite of Sedge.

[Tom_Doak]

There are no opposite courses at Bandon, but I get the sense that either Lido or Mammoth could be considered the polar opposite of Sedge.

I don’t think Lido is opposite to Sedge Valley - there’s a lot more room to play, but you pay a price for getting out of position.  Sedge Valley is very much a reaction to Mammoth Dunes (and Streamsong Black and Landmand and whatever), if not quite an opposite.


But, Pacific Dunes was also a reaction to Bandon Dunes; the only difference is that Michael Keiser is less settled in his musts than his dad was.

[Bill Seitz]

But to me, the difference is that Sedge Valley makes you earn that low score - a really bad shot will lead to bogey or worse, even on some of the shortest holes.  You might catch a break and get away with a mistake, but that next shot is probably going to have to be a very good one.


I just don’t have that same sense with Mammoth Dunes - the scale is so big that even a bad drive frequently results in an easy approach, especially for longer hitters.  And I get why lots of people enjoy that.  But it’s just not how I was raised 

I felt like the recovery options at Sedge weren't terrible, but I hit the ball pretty well.  But agree that usually a bad shot was going to result in a bogey.  The nice thing about sprinkling in some short 3s and 4s is that you have chances to turn things around.  My worst stretch was 8-11, with a few bad drives, bad long irons, a bad short iron, and 3 bogeys on 8, 9, and 10.  But I made par from bad drive on 11, and birdied the short holes at 12 and 13 to right the ship.  The only place I saw that was really brutal was the big bunker behind 17 (but I'm sure there are others).  Two guys from our group went into fairway bunkers, and hit their seconds into that deep bunker trying to play to a back pin on a pretty big back to front sloping green, and I'm not sure either finished the hole.  My approach wasn't quite as bad, over the green, but not in the bunker.  A really good pitch still ran about 12-15 feet by, but made the come-backer for par. 


The only place at Mammoth that really looked scary was the bricks bunker on 7, and somehow I got up and down from about 45 yards there.

[Joe Zucker]

I had a chance to play Mammoth in June, but Sedge Valley was not open so I can't offer a comparison.  I found Mammoth to be wide and forgiving, but not quite as easy as I'd heard. The slopes don't universally help and I certainly felt that bad drives had poorer angles/views in most cases.  You often ended up in the fairway, but over time poor shots would be marginally punished. 


There used to be a quote I saw on GCA that said something to the effect of good shots are rewarded over many rounds by creating slight advantages over average shots.  I felt this was true of Mammoth.


Mammoth is rated very easy. Probably too easy as no one in our group even sniffed shooting their index.  The raw scores were certainly good, but I didn't feel the course played as easy as rated or advertised. 

[Richard Hetzel]

This green complex at Sedge reminds me of a similar green (7th I think!) at Crystal Downs, but it's opposite at Sedge. Playing Sedge next Tuesday! Lido right after.

[Tim_Weiman]

Richard,


Thanks for posting those pictures. Along with Te Arai North, Sedge Valley is the course I would most like to see and play.


Tim

[Richard Hetzel]

I played Sedge Valley yesterday (and in brutal humidity) and loved it. Did NOT love the humidity. Way better than Mammoth Dunes and Sand Valley in my opinion. Loved it Tom! Here are a few pics. And, I thought the width was just fine. Sedge felt like a real golf course, whereas, SV and Mammoth felt "tricked up".

[Mike Hendren]

Richard, I too played Sedge Valley yesterday - it was hotter than a pair of jumper cables at a Skynyrd concert.  I played Lido the previous day.  I’m still sorting both courses out.  I enjoyed both greatly but didn’t “love” either.  I fear my architectural acumen, however modest, is waning these days.  More on Lido later.


As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution.  Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes.   Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.


I’ll say this: I have never played off turf as good as Lido and Sedge Valley.  Perfection. 

[John Mayhugh]

As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution.  Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes.   Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.

I would love to hear more about this. I didn't have that perception at all from when I was there last year. Other than a few holes, if others are uphill on the approach, it seemed pretty slight to me. Maybe being really hot conditions amplified the impression.

[Tom_Doak]

As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution.  Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes.   Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.

I would love to hear more about this. I didn't have that perception at all from when I was there last year. Other than a few holes, if others are uphill on the approach, it seemed pretty slight to me. Maybe being really hot conditions amplified the impression.

Interesting, and I am trying to think whether Michael is right.


Partly it depends on where you are driving the ball.


The holes that DO have uphill approaches are 1, 3, 14, and 16.


On many of the others, if you hit a good tee shot you're pretty level with the green, but if you pull it left on 2, or fan one right on 4 [or 6], or hit it over the plateau on 10, or hit a short tee shot on 12, or go left on 18, all of those approach shots become uphill.  I've never really thought about it like that.

[Steve Lapper]

I just played there two weeks ago and really enjoyed the course.


Mike is right, save for a few downhillers and knob-to-knobs, there is a preponderance of uphill holes. None were so severe as to feel ominous nor  sequenced to feel repetitive. I'm not sure the property would've yielded so many good holes if Tom had not taken strong advantage of the gently heaving terrain.


If, as Tom has been quoted, his routing was predicated on finding the ideal green sites first, it makes perfect sense. What makes Sedge more fun than all but the Sandbox is it's intimacy and unforced playing corridors. It's varied green complexes were alway interesting and reflective of instilling a high strategic value on every approach. Misses and the accompanying recovery shots were uniquely different throughout the 18. It had a sporty, high energy nature that Lido lacked. For me, it felt like a golf course I'd want to have a quick bite and go out and play it again. That's always the ultimate compliment.

[Mike Hendren]

John, no doubt the heat amplified the uphill terrain.  In addition to the uphill holes Tom cited, I might add 11, 12 and 18 (hopefully remembered correctly).  Also, there's a climb out of the valley on the knob-to-knob short holes: 5, 7, and 15. Finally, there are a few climbs to the next tee after holes 3, 6, 8 and 15.


All that said, my previous post was more observation than criticism.  At the age of 66 I carry more than a few extra pounds so I'm hardly a legitimate straw man.


Hope you're well.




 

[John Mayhugh]

Mike,
Even with my flawed memory, I can confirm that 18 is most definitely uphill!

I've seen others talk about it being a lot of climbing and a tough walk. Perhaps it is, but I never perceived it. With firm turf, slightly uphill shots don't trouble me nearly as much as a course that's soft, so that probably impacted my impressions.

[Jeff Tang]

That’s interesting, I recently played Sedge and during the round never felt like there were a lot of uphill holes / shots.  Now that I think back I can understand that feedback, but I think it’s more subtle / gradual rather than significant changes in elevation, with a few exceptions (ie, I was right on 2 and the second was uphill by a lot, I played short on 18 and the second there was also uphill).

[Tom_Doak]

I guess it would be fair to say there is a fair amount of up-and-down at Sedge.  I don't know that there is any more of it than at Sand Valley or Mammoth Dunes, and they are both 1000 yards longer, so it surprises me that the walk at Sedge is deemed different . . . or maybe it's not, Mike didn't say about the other two.  Lido, obviously, is very flat by its nature.


I have never understood people's bias against "uphill holes".  Many of the great holes in the world are uphill.  And as far as walking goes, what goes up must come down, and vice versa . . . unless I come up with a routing like Dismal River [which y'all also didn't like]. 


The point that several of the shorter holes play over a big dip that you have to walk through [even if you land level with the tee] is indeed true.   But I will say that Mike's assertion that there is a dominance of uphill holes and lots of uphill green-to-tee walks does not quite add up . . . they have to even out.

[Mike Hendren]

Note that I said I “felt” like” I’d played an abundance of uphill holes.  I didn’t cool off walking downhill.   

[Andy Ryall]

I was fortunate to play Lido and Sedge Friday and would echo the comments regarding turf quality.   This is further amplified by the fact that the area received ~ 5 inches of rain the afternoon before and you would never have known.  Both were enjoyable for different reasons but Sedge gets the nod in my book for playability and variety of holes, which still allows for driver on most non-Par 3s.  Reminded me a bit of Pinehurst 3 in that you can hit driver but you still need to be sharp with short irons and around the greens to score.  Would echo the sentiment of the 5-8 stretch as being most memorable but I also thought the finishing stretch was equally as good.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom, will the greens at Sedge Valley and Lido soften over time?  Somehow I got 25 extra yards uphill at Sedge’s 16th with an 8-iron.  At Lido my best/pure shots at the Eden and Short trickled forever until disappearing over the back of those greens. Same thing happened with  a 4-hybrid into the punch bowl.


I don’t mean to insinuate that I deserved better given my slow swing speed and low spin ball but it is rare for me to go long so often - 4 times at Lido alone.


Note to others - long at Lido is death. 


That said the small bunker behind the 2nd green at Sedge is an absolute gem.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Tom, will the greens at Sedge Valley and Lido soften over time?  Somehow I got 25 extra yards uphill at Sedge’s 16th with an 8-iron.  At Lido my best/pure shots at the Eden and Short trickled forever until disappearing over the back of those greens. Same thing happened with  a 4-hybrid over the Alps.


I don’t mean to insinuate that I deserved better given my slow swing speed and low spin ball but it is rare for me to go long so often. 


Note to others - long at Lido is death. 


That said the small bunker behind the 2nd green at Sedge is an absolute gem.

I am also curious about this. The Lido was presumably designed with greens stimping about 6, but at the new course, they are fast as lightening. When I was there recently, I just kind of shook my head at this contradiction. And, of course, every member I spoke with about it thought I was crazy, which is to be expected. I absolutely loved the course, this just stuck out for me.

Nearly every hole has a way to run the ball up to the green (save for channel, alps, punchbowl, short), which is ideal for low spinning irons, yet actually using these run ups was extremely risky because using them might just as well run the ball right off the back.

I just feel like there is an inherent conflict between the design for modern launch angles/spin rates and modern green speeds, but it seems very exaggerated when placed on an older design. I'm not sure how to square it, but I think it's there.

[Tim Gavrich]

Firm greens like those found at Lido are a clear example of how OEMs have forsaken millions of golfers by failing to offer golf balls that spin enough.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, will the greens at Sedge Valley and Lido soften over time?  Somehow I got 25 extra yards uphill at Sedge’s 16th with an 8-iron.  At Lido my best/pure shots at the Eden and Short trickled forever until disappearing over the back of those greens. Same thing happened with  a 4-hybrid into the punch bowl.

I don’t mean to insinuate that I deserved better given my slow swing speed and low spin ball but it is rare for me to go long so often - 4 times at Lido alone.

Mike:


Yes, Lido is very fast and firm, and all those who say they love such conditions should be careful what they wish for!  I've yet to play Sedge this year so I can't comment on it.


They will almost inevitably soften over time, once a bit of thatch builds up underneath the turf.  About the only one of my courses that has maintained its exceptional firmness 5+ years into play is The Loop . . . the ball still runs onto greens and off the back of greens there.

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