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DMoriarty

Re:So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2004, 08:37:29 PM »
Black Rock is not a 150 slope type course. That is way too high from my vast experience  ;D with such courses.
Okay Matt whatever you say . . . I guess it is the "junk" you mentioned in your previous thread that should have substantially lowered the slope . . .  
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The reason courses feel like slogs to you may be uniquely tied to your understanding of quality golf design. I never said Black Rock should be canonized but it's far from being a slog in my eyes.
Matt I played with four golfers as bad or worse than me and I can think of no better description than 'slog.'  One man's slog is another's terrific test of golf.
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Regarding the beauty of the course you may need to use glasses because I saw it front and center the minute I stepped onto the course. If you missed it -- then maybe you're eyes need to be opened further than they were.
I saw the beauty of the setting on the road in, from the clubhouse, from some of the paths, and from a few tees . . . but once I got down into the troughs they call fairways, the beauty of the surrounds all but disappears.

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You see #11 as bells and whistles -- I don't. End of story on that account. You won't convince me and the reverse is likewise. You also forgot the strategic qualities that Engh provides on a vast array of other holes.
Photos linked from Mr. Engh's website  ( http://www.enghgolf.com/blackrock.htm )
 
That second photo must have been taken from a residential lot, because there is nothing close to that view from the course.  
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David -- I love when I mention the comments of others, Simply put -- since other comments don't exactly dovetail with your self beliefs you utterly dismiss them. How convenient and utterly so David. the people I met with were those who were both members and nonmembers. Their comments were quite frank and to the point. But, since the comments were not in agreement with your take these people must be delusional or way off base like me. There you again David -- being David.
Who else should I be?   In your previous post they were members but now they are guests too?   No matter, unless there was a rater luncheon that day they were guests of members.  Guests might be the only group less likely than the members to knock a course, at least in the presence of their hosts.   But let me guess . . . you forgot to mention that you interviewed them in a private, confidential confessional?  

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David -- you must have missed the fact that a number of holes are on higher ground than the clubhouse and the surrounding homes ... check out the tees on #5 and #8, to name just two holes. Your comment here is way off base.
 Matt, there are no holes higher than the clubhouse and surrounding lots.  I said in my first post that there are a few tee boxes with views.  But these are the exceptions which prove the rule.  Built on a bluff overlooking lake Cd'Lne and the best you can come up with is two tee boxes??  Yikes.

Your recollection is just mistaken regarding the concavity of the course.  Next time I am in the area I'll take some photos.  In the mean time here is a link to some flash photos on their site.  Not necessarily the most egregious holes, but the only photos I could find:
Black Rock Flash Photos
A few comments . . .
-- No. 18:  2nd Row, 3rd Column -- What an inspired finish!  Climbing up that sluice box with no hope of striking it rich.  Imagine the 50-something member who takes three or four to get to the green.  They better have defib units in those carts for the climbs out of the holes alone.  Compelling golf?  Fools Gold.  

-- No. 5:  2nd Row, 1st Column --  That shadowed slope on the top of the pic is many times the height of the worker, as is the twin mound on the left.  And doesnt this hole present basically the same risk/reward decision as your vaunted 16th?  In fact dont a number of holes present essentially the same approach strategy?  Hit over trouble to a green which runs perpendicular to the hole, or bail out (usually right.)  

-- No. 8:  2nd Row, Middle:  Here is your No. 16 again, strategy-wise.  Great variety on the par 5s!   Notice the mounding on both side in the drive landing area.  Notice the containment bank all along the left side of the hole.  To stay in character the bank runs completely around the green.  Like playing golf in a trough.  

-- No. 6:  1st Row, 1st and 3rd Columns:  Hmmm, that's peculiar . . . a mirror image approach to the others.  Now that is variety.   In the first pic. look at the green elevation compared to its surrounds.  In the third pic, notice how there is even mounding betwee the fairway and the pond.  Check out that back right pin, the one with the mini-mound between it and the bunker.  

Are you sure you want to stick with your recollection regarding the concavity of the holes?   Perhaps a few more pics from Mr. Engh's website . . .


Another of No. 8.  Check out the bleachers around the green and on both sides of the fairway . . . Expecting a major, are we?


No. 14.  The flash link (1st row, 2nd column) gives you a closeup look at the mound between the green and the waterfalls. Wouldn't want any balls going over there . . .

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I love your put down with the last comment. David -- you have a very narrow sense of golf course design -- so be it. You don't know what you're missing with Lakota Canyon and frankly it would be lost on you anyway.  ;D
I must be getting better at putting you down; I didnt even know I did so in my last comment.  Just an honest assessment of the reasons I most likely will not see whatever course you mentioned above.  

But while we are on the subject . . . I am growing tired of the condescending manner in which you lord your vast experience over us.  It isnt necessarily lack of energy or laziness or even lack of inclination which keeps many of us from hopping the globe, from course to course.  Some of us have lives beyond golf.  We dont always get to play where and when we want but instead must sometimes play where and when we can.  

Matt_Ward

Re:So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2004, 03:45:55 PM »
David:

For someone to use the word "condescending" is really laughable -- talk about the kettle calling the pot black. ::)That's a stock in trade tactic you have perfected.

I am a golf media person and as a result I do travel a good bit and see / play a slew of courses you will likely not encounter. My analysis is based on a much deeper pool of courses to compare and contrast than many. Likely -- including yourself.

David -- just because you and others cannot and do not play a vast array of courses is not my problem or issue. That's yours. People make choices and that's clearly their prerogtaive. Just because you limit yourself doesn't mean I have to or even want to.  Also, you don't know the context of my life because it includes a vast array of different activities beyond golf and involves an array of family and civic involvements. Nonetheless, my passion for the game is second to none and I do make a point in playing a wide array of courses in order for me to develop a wider sense of what arhitecture can and should be about.

David -- you take umbrage when any comments doesn't jive with your narrow (my word) sense what golf course architecture can be about. I mentioned the comments from others on the subject of Black Rock. They are all conveniently dismissed by you as either woefully ignorant or subject to conflicts of interests that prevent objectivity. That's major league BS because none of those comment "toe the Moriarty line."

I know plenty of panelists from the different magazines -- including the people I spoke with while there -- and generally they found Black Rock to be a solid design effort by Jim Engh -- they also have played other designs he has created. Many of these same people also told me they believe Friar's Head should have been voted #1 by Digest for "Best New Private" a year ago. I can't say for sure because I have not played FH thus far. I have played Dallas National and I see the Texas layout being just ahead of what's there at Black Rock.

Let me elaborate on a few of the holes that you asimply butchered with your own analysis.

The beauty of the course is there throughout the time one plays at Black Rock. Laboring with you on this point is truly silly. Frankly, we disagree here big time.

Thank you for your snide "whatever you say" comment regarding the slope. I have played courses that are less than 150 but are clearly tougher and more intense for all the hurdles they provide (Bethpage Black comes to mind immediately and it's not at 150) than what one encounters at Black Rock. The demands at Black Rock deal in many ways with the greens -- the tee-to-green aspect is less so and ditto the penal and demands of the rough off the tee.

I also enjoy your small grouping of fellow mid-handicap types who all to a man said Black Rock was a slog. A great sampling of opinion no doubt. ::)

You bitch and moan about no hole being higher than the clubhouse and surrounding lots -- big f'en deal. What does that have to do with the quality of the existing holes? Hello -- anybody home?

Let's talk about the so-called "concavity" of the holes. Where is it so pronounced that poor play is somehow rewarded? If you hit tee shots at the corners the ball will run-off faster than a jackrabbit on a number of holes -- including the par-5 8th hole you pictured.

This idea that concavity is all encompassing and it in fact causes the course to be weaker architecturally is not true. It's great to say -- "Oh, look at the 'concavity' here" -- but tell me how it affects the golfer when playing the hole? I played the course and made it a point to play shots from varying angles -- your conclusion doesn't wash with what I experienced. David -- you're into the "how it looks" belief -- I look at something that means a bit more -- "how it plays."

The 18th is a fine closer -- it plays uphill and the 418 yard distance plays a bit longer than the card indicates. It has a demanding tee shot because those who opt to play closer to the right side will encounter a well-placed bunker on that side. If you slide the drive further left the angle for the approach becomes more demanding.

The green is also appropriately sloped and you need to gauge your speed with great care. The 18th is a possible birdie hole but it doesn't yield unless you play a first rate tee shot and fine approach.

Let's also talk about bailouts -- there are plenty provided on the course -- guess what David -- they call that options -- something the player can opt to do on number of holes at Black Rock. These options are also varied from both left and right sides depending upon the angle of attack you are left with and the position of the pin.

Engh doesn't generally provide holes with an "all or nothing" style. He does provide the player (high and low handicapper) with a range of options depending upon your comfort zone and execution level.

The downhill par-5 8th is rated as the #1 handicap hole at Black Rock and I did say (please re-read what I said) that I don't see the hole at the highest of levels. The hole does provide a range of options. David -- the 8th hole will not prevent wayward drives frm simply clinging to the fairway. That is hogwash. The played must shape a shot to catch the provided "turbo boost" and if done correctly you then may have the option in going for the green in two strokes.

Your analysis also failed to highlight the fact that the green is two-tiered and you and need to consider where you leave the ball at all times.

Of course -- you conveniently skipped any discussion on the superb par-5 16th. It's one of the best par-5's I have played among modern design and shows me the talent level of what Jim Engh is capable in producing.

Let's also talk about the 6th -- it's a good par-4 -- not a great one. The tee shot is best played as close to the water off the fairway to the right to give you the best angle and distance into the target. The green is well designed because it can place a great premium on your approach to get to the proper spot. With the pin cut low towards the right it takes a highly skilled shot to get close. Again -- the way the hole plays is what I consider first and foremost.

David -- take the time to read my previous posts on the issue I have with the par-3 13th hole. I never defended the hole and it's about time you understand what others have to say before lobbing forward some quick blurb on what I missed regarding it. I wasn't impressed with the waterfall there and fundamentally the 13th is simply a major weak link at the course. I did salute the following hole -- because the approach is much more intense and the green design well arranged with sufficient contour. Again you throw forward the obvious and simply ignore all the other top notch elements the course provides.

I'll say this again in case you missed it -- Black Rock is a fine course by Jim Engh and after playing his newest effort at Lakota Canyon I will say it's the second best I have personally played from his portfolio. Engh provides a wealth of choices when playing his courses and there are few people in architecture circles today who design better par-5's. I have also said that I would like to see greater hole differentiation --this generally happens when he sticks to using five par-5's and five par-3's on some of his designs. Black Rock does this configuration quite well and Lakota Canyon goes even further.

Jim Engh is a talented designer -- he may not be on the short list of certain GCA types who have their clear "favorites" but I always enjoy the work he does. Not all of it by any rate are all home runs but he does provide in many courses a well thought-out idea on what golfers need to do in order succeed at his layouts.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2024, 04:09:42 AM »
Saw this hole being discussed on reddit today, and thought it was worth posting here.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2024, 12:18:43 PM »
The first time I saw it I hated it. Then I decided it was fun. It’s only a wedge. The tee ball is downhill with views of the lake. My wife loved the hole. The shot into the green was exciting for her. I can understand those who think it is contrived, because it is.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2024, 03:53:49 PM »
When I walked from the cart path to the green and saw the hose that supplies the right-hand waterfall lying on the ground, I just chuckled and left.


Matt Ward is still around, writing on other venues . . . I wonder if he still thinks Black Rock is a great course?  I don't think it's fared that well with twenty years of hindsight.

Brett Wiesley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2024, 04:39:05 PM »
Agreed

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2024, 06:34:01 PM »
All of Jim's courses are contrived, lots of eye candy, and lots of fun to play. If you are a purist and love minimalism, not for you. For me, they are a lot of fun to play multiple times.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Greg Hohman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2024, 07:15:47 PM »
DMoriarty is one of the "powerhouse posters" of yesteryear referred to by Mayday in the Did Golf Media Kill GCA.com thread? Is he, evidently a formidable individual risky to cross on any path, walking/cart or written, still among us?
newmonumentsgc.com

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So Just How Good is Black Rock ?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2024, 12:47:49 PM »
Agree with Cary, BR is certainly fun to play.  In some ways this feels like the TR of the west as it draws so many mixed reviews, but seeing and playing this hole couldnt help but have a big smile on my face.


I have it as a DS 7 and no doubt some here would go far lower, but if the fun scale is best defined as how likely are you to go right back to 1 tee, then its certainly way up there.

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