[Tim Martin]

There are currently a couple of topics on the front page dealing with slow play. Fast greens have already been cited as one of the main reasons but that deals with setup the same as mow lines and height of rough cut.

If a design is laden with forced carry shots then players are looking for lost balls and reloading. There are some compelling examples (9 Yale) but the concept definitely has a negative impact on pace of play. What other design features contribute to slow play?

[Tom_Doak]

Anything that makes the course harder will generally cause play to be slower.


Anything that makes you pause and think will cause the course to play slower.


But if you don't want boring golf courses, you've got to have some tolerance for this.  Exactly how much tolerance will depend on the individual user.

[Matt Schoolfield]

In the research I've done when I wrote The Four-Hour Round is Bullshit, the scholarly studies (mostly Lucius Riccio's work) suggests that most of actual pace-of-play (full play time) has more to do with tee-time intervals and hole carry capacity than anything else. The idea is to thing of the golf course as a factory, and apply theory of constraints research to the golf course.

Only when folks realize the dynamic that an unrestricted player should always "catch up" to the group ahead of them, and that the course's primary limiting speed factor is actually traffic jams, does the situation become clearer. Only if you're aiming for 3 hour rounds (going off on the first tee time in the morning) would things like green speeds matter significantly.

According to this thesis, the idea scenario is that lower-capacity holes come first on the course (par 3's, and reachable par 4's and 5's). This could, however, negatively effect the impressions of pace (flow), even if it lowers overall pace (Yates touches on these issues in his interview). After which tee-time intervals should take care of any other congestion issues. Obviously, no solution is perfect, and a marshal is a decent idea on a course with beginners, but for the most part, I see in-fighting about green speeds, hazards, and searching for lost balls, even shot set-up. I just see this as mostly missing the forest through the trees. I get a lot of angry push back when I bring up this research, but I've yet to see any scholarly work that show that slow play is the result of individuals or course difficulty rather than systemic causes. I'm sure a lot of folks here have a lot more experience working on courses than I do, but the plural of anecdote is not data, and I trust data.

I brought up the topic of what people "mean" in the other thread because I think there is a lot of conflation between pace as "amount of time a round takes" and "amount of waiting around" the latter I don't see as solvable, as it's effectively an arms race. It looks like a lot of us disagree on what we're even discussing, which makes the problem... difficult.

[Tim Martin]

Blindness is another design feature that causes slow play. That said I love the intrigue and excitement that a blind shot provides.

[Garland Bayley]

...
but I've yet to see any scholarly work that show that slow play is the result of individuals
...

Clearly these "scholars" are not capable of choosing a sample that has slow play individuals. At my former club everyone knew there were two extremely slow playing individuals. Members that ended up playing with them learned that meticulously cleaning your clubs during the round was the primary way to preserve your sanity while waiting for then to play. One was one of the lowest handicap golfers at the club who took forever to hit the ball. He was a humble person who made an effort to speed up his play, and made progress on that. The other was less humble and told people that he didn't care about people's complaints as his favorite place to be was on the golf course and he figured it should be the same for everyone else.

At my current club without real estate, there are many average golfers that have seen too much professional golf on TV, and endlessly read putts, mark balls, and line up cheater lines only to be unable to hit their putt on the intended line at the proper speed. Five to six hour rounds happen, and my clubs end up being much cleaner than they started.

Finally there is the Bandon caddy effect, where the caddy give advice on clubbing, line to hit the ball on, putting reads, and how hard to hit putts, only to have the player to be unable to accomplish any of it, thereby needlessly extending the length of the round over what it would have been had the caddy only carried the bag and kept his mouth shut. Had the caddy done that he would have deserved a tip from the rest of the foursome.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Everyone knows everything if you’re only interested in confirming your own priors. The influences on pace of play are extremely complex, and that does include individuals, but they suddenly become very simple when you’re looking to blame the group in front of you.

[Garland Bayley]

Everyone knows everything if you’re only interested in confirming your own priors. The influences on pace of play are extremely complex, and that does include individuals, but they suddenly become very simple when you’re looking to blame the group in front of you.

So you disagree with the scholarly work that you say doesn't show a problem with individuals. Good!

[Matt Schoolfield]

So you disagree with the scholarly work that you say doesn't show a problem with individuals. Good!

The reason why this is frustrating for me, the entire point that I’m trying to make, is that of all the inputs that can contribute to a slow round, the ones that matter the most and the ones that we have the most control over, is carry capacity and tee time intervals.


Yes, player speed does matters, but there isn’t club that doesn’t encourage ready golf, there isn’t a player that doesn’t know they should be mindful, and ultimately players pace is out of our control. Under ideal conditions, one or two slow players should not slow the whole day. The reason why they do is exactly the other issues involved.


We best work on factors we can control before focusing on a few players who are probably just trying to have a good time.

[Thomas Dai]

Long green to next tee walks and paths that snake don’t help especially if the walk is back to the next tee.
Not sure if it’s architecture or set-up/maintenance but lack of bridges across streams etc slows things down.
atb

[Cal Carlisle]

...
but I've yet to see any scholarly work that show that slow play is the result of individuals
...

Five to six hour rounds happen, and my clubs end up being much cleaner than they started.

A six hour round would put hate in my heart.

[Mark_Fine]

In addition, other things such as “cart paths only” dramatically slows up play, long rough can result in lost/looking for balls which slows up play, fast greens because there are more putts maybe slows up play but then the same could be said for bumpy greens because there are more putts, …, how the course/architecture is maintained can impact pace of play.

[Sean_A]

So you disagree with the scholarly work that you say doesn't show a problem with individuals. Good!

The reason why this is frustrating for me, the entire point that I’m trying to make, is that of all the inputs that can contribute to a slow round, the ones that matter the most and the ones that we have the most control over, is carry capacity and tee time intervals.


Yes, player speed does matters, but there isn’t club that doesn’t encourage ready golf, there isn’t a player that doesn’t know they should be mindful, and ultimately players pace is out of our control. Under ideal conditions, one or two slow players should not slow the whole day. The reason why they do is exactly the other issues involved.


We best work on factors we can control before focusing on a few players who are probably just trying to have a good time.

It stands to reason that after a certain number, the more people on a course the slower the round will be. It also stands to reason that the more people on a course the more the architectural features and maintenence set up will add to slow play. All that said, when numbers are low and a round takes too long to play that is a player slow play issue. Same can surely be said for 5+ hour rounds unless tee intervals are something crazy like 5 minutes.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Just bad design can also cause slow play.


When you have to exit the green from the front to get to the next tee is a 'baddie'.


Generally though everything that makes things harder will add time and it is continually a balance with interest v plain.

[Mike_Trenham]

When factory workers stage a work slow down, output sufffers.

[A.G._Crockett]

IMO, slow play is much less about GCA and much more about course conditions and maintenance practices.


Cart path only is slow.  Searching for golf balls is slow. Putting on super fast greens is slow. Too many golfers on the course at one time is slow.


But at the end of the day, slow players are slow.  That is a MUCH bigger issue than anything the GCA did, anything the Super did, and anything management did.

[Ira Fishman]

It takes only one slow group (or even one slow player) to mess up the day for every group behind them. I have found two general categories of slow players: (1) those who do not realize that they are slow and will make an effort to speed up if pointed out to them and (2) those who realize and do not care and/or rationalize the problem away. My sense is that only peer pressure/club culture can have any effect on the second category. I have never been paired up with anyone except Americans who fall into either category.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

It takes only one slow group (or even one slow player) to mess up the day for every group behind them. I have found two general categories of slow players: (1) those who do not realize that they are slow and will make an effort to speed up if pointed out to them and (2) those who realize and do not care and/or rationalize the problem away. My sense is that only peer pressure/club culture can have any effect on the second category. I have never been paired up with anyone except Americans who fall into either category.


Ira

Ira-I’ve found that most players when criticized for slow play act/are completely unaware or are aghast that they are being called out.

[Kyle Harris]

I alluded to this on the other thread but it's more on topic here.

There is a ton of apologism for the current state of the golf business here and perhaps of the lack of a culture-driven approach.

Slow play is caused by individuals and businesses catering to individuals. We've lost the plot of what it means to be on a golf course and a social game where there is an expectation to behave in a manner appropriate to the whole.


Etiquette used to have an entire section devoted to "right-of-way" on the golf course and how the single player (or a group of a single players sharing a tee time) had no precedence over organized games. "Matches" are whatever format a group comes up with that makes them feel better about themselves often times at the expense of golf rules and pace of play.

Playing through when appropriate and possible is all but GONE from the culture and the expectation has become that the faster group should skip ahead instead of "bothering" the group that is playing slower (not necessarily slow, because it's the relative pace that matters here). 


We become constrained by all these "studies" that have little grounding in reality and only look good on spreadsheets. The studies only serve to protect the tee time space and the so-called revenue generating it represents. That may keep financial cost down to the golfer, but I'd gladly pay a little more if I could finish an hour sooner.

[Mike Wagner]

I alluded to this on the other thread but it's more on topic here.

There is a ton of apologism for the current state of the golf business here and perhaps of the lack of a culture-driven approach.

Slow play is caused by individuals and businesses catering to individuals. We've lost the plot of what it means to be on a golf course and a social game where there is an expectation to behave in a manner appropriate to the whole.


Etiquette used to have an entire section devoted to "right-of-way" on the golf course and how the single player (or a group of a single players sharing a tee time) had no precedence over organized games. "Matches" are whatever format a group comes up with that makes them feel better about themselves often times at the expense of golf rules and pace of play.

Playing through when appropriate and possible is all but GONE from the culture and the expectation has become that the faster group should skip ahead instead of "bothering" the group that is playing slower (not necessarily slow, because it's the relative pace that matters here). 


We become constrained by all these "studies" that have little grounding in reality and only look good on spreadsheets. The studies only serve to protect the tee time space and the so-called revenue generating it represents. That may keep financial cost down to the golfer, but I'd gladly pay a little more if I could finish an hour sooner.

Yep. I'd say 95% individual, 5% whatever else excuse you want to make up for playing slow. We now have decades of people who have literally been taught to play like snails.


What I'd really like to see from the scholars is a study on the subject of scores / pace of play. They won't admit it, but I guarantee any study would come back that generally speaking, faster actually equalled better (scores). Now if the study was funded by "Pre-shot routines by Dr. PHD," "Golf This Way by Jim Furyk," "How I Win" by Patrick Cantlay, or "Golf is Great by Selling Commercials" by Tim Finchem, then results may vary.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For what it's worth, here are some thoughts I had on designing strictly to improve the pace and/or flow (i.e. reduce wait times) of play.....a few of these would probably never be adopted at most courses, but maybe they should.




·       Design for Every Day Player, not Tour Pros who will never show up, i.e.,:
 
o   Decrease difficulty, and increase playability, especially at public courses.
o   Eliminate as many hazards as possible in areas like short right of greens.
o   Widen fairways and play corridors
o   Remove brush from wooded areas to reduce lost golf ball search time.
o   Make sure turf reductions consider shot dispersion patterns of “C and D” players
. Shallow Rough (just deep enough for visual contrast to fw)
 
·       Reverse the 1980’s-1990’s “Country Club for a Day” trend, where more public courses were designed with private club difficulty, and even muni courses were no longer golf’s version of the bunny slopes.
 
·       Shorten your course from the middle and forward tees to eliminate 5-10 “unnecessary shots.”
 
·       Design greens with easily read contours and moderate slopes.
 
o   Long Constant Breaks vs. Random, subtle changes of elevation.
o   Reduce green speeds! (9-10 is the most average golfers can handle)
 
·       Easy holes play fast. Hard holes play slowly.  Rather than a “rhythm” of easy, medium, and hard holes, strive to make holes of similar overall difficulty, with varying challenges:
 
o   Hard tee shot followed by easier approach and/or putting.
o   Medium difficulty tee shot with harder approach and/or putting.
o   Easy tee shot followed by medium approach shot and easier putting.
 
·      The fastest course to play would be one with 18 par 4 holes of similar difficulty.

• Make the first hole:

o   A par 3, so technically the wait to play is not counted in the time it takes to play the round
o   The hardest, with every hole getting a bit easier……in theory, players will move away from the previous hole, increasing flow.
 
·       Combat Par 3 hole backups by:
 
o   Making Par 3 holes easy, no hard hazards (esp front right, and gentle putting surfaces)
o   Harder holes before
o   Easier holes/tee shots to get group away faster, opening up the tee for the par 3 group coming on)
 
·       Reduce distance and travel time from green to next tee.
·       Circulation - Design travel routes:
o   Direct Routes (don’t skimp on bridges that lengthen route)
o   Based primarily for the busiest tees.
o   Keep cart path access to rear half of greens
o   NEVER locate next tee short of and off to one side of previous green, it causes walk backs making the next group wait. 
 
·       Are reachable short par 5’s and drivable par 4’s really a good idea?
 
 
·     The fastest play hazards are (in approximate order):
 
§  Ponds, with few golfers looking for their “deep sixed” golf balls.
§  Green side sand bunkers (always use Sand Wedge)
§  Greenside chipping areas maintained at fairway height - tricky for many, but misses are quick.
o  Deep rough (extensive ball searches) and fairway sand bunkers (difficult shot for most, indecision in club selection) slow play.
·       While most courses should accommodate all players, some may consider tailoring design to narrower market segments, which may speed play.
l  Spreading out tee times is proven to reduce congestion.  Go from 6-8 minutes to 10-15 minutes.  At daily fee facilities, you’ll likely be able to charge more for what will become a better experience.
l  Adopt the relaxed USGA rules of play and other time saving policies.
l  If the Rules of Golf allow, replace “O.B.” areas with “Penalty Areas.”
 
[size=0pt] [/size]
 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

My college kids played a course that had the thickest crap you'd ever want to see on a golf course (often down both sides), and pace of play was very quick (for a college event - 4:15 to 4:30, walking, with rain off and on) because… if you hit your ball offline, you knew it was gone, so you didn't bother searching for it. You dropped (red PA) or re-hit (OB) and played on.

Bill Yates pointed out that water hazards don't really slow the pace of play down because the result is often definitive - if you see a splash, you don't look for the ball. You drop and keep moving.

[Mike Wagner]

My college kids played a course that had the thickest crap you'd ever want to see on a golf course (often down both sides), and pace of play was very quick (for a college event - 4:15 to 4:30, walking, with rain off and on) because… if you hit your ball offline, you knew it was gone, so you didn't bother searching for it. You dropped (red PA) or re-hit (OB) and played on.

Bill Yates pointed out that water hazards don't really slow the pace of play down because the result is often definitive - if you see a splash, you don't look for the ball. You drop and keep moving.

This is the problem. You've seen it for SO long that "4:15-4:30" is now VERY quick. It's not. First step is getting to a place where that time is an average tournament round.


It comes down to people are slow. They've been taught to play slow. You should pioneer a study in faster play = lower scores ... might change the world.

[Ben Sims]

Looking for balls is an absolute time suck. Particularly when the entire four ball comes to a screeching halt to help look for the ball. Corridor width is a direct influence on whether tee shots are lost. Derive conclusions from there.


Going further, over the summer I’ve been struck by how much faster three balls are than four. Seems obvious and perhaps it is. I’m surprised that more private clubs in the US don’t have 5 or 8 two or three-ball tee times in the morning.

[Jeff Schley]

Anything that makes the course harder will generally cause play to be slower.


Anything that makes you pause and think will cause the course to play slower.


But if you don't want boring golf courses, you've got to have some tolerance for this.  Exactly how much tolerance will depend on the individual user.

I think an exception is a hero carry over water vs bunker, skinny fairway or forest carries.  You hit, u see a splash, u drop.  No looking or holding anyone up.  The slow rounds are people looking for their balls, which comes from blind shots, high rough and fescue/gorse

[Thomas Dai]

Its coming up to Autumn in the Northern Hemisphere.
Leaf fall and the total pain that is searching for golf balls in leaves will be upon us pretty soon.
atb

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