[Dave Doxey]

Talking about slow play and actually doing something about it are quite different.  I hear a lot of talk, but have yet to see any real action taken, other than signs and posters.


The Virginia State Golf Association publishes a monthly magazine.  A recent issue has a long article on the problem of slow play and why golfers must do something about it.   Full of statistics.


The magazine arrived a few days after my foursome had played in a ‘one day’ tournament run by this same golf association.  We walked off of the course after having played 9 holes in 3 hours and 15 minutes.  We only encountered one marshal, and he had parked his cart near a tee and was picking raspberries.  When we mentioned the problem to the association person running the event, he brushed us off saying that they had a lot of people sign up and it was crowded.


A chance to lead by example was sadly missed.

[Charlie Goerges]

Tee time spacing, for instance, =/= setup. If we accept that density is required for revenue, then we must also accept a 4.5 hour round, too.

Between 2016 and 2020 LA City courses extended their tee time intervals from 6 minutes to 12 minutes. The resulting impact, pace of play dropped by 30 minutes and the number of round played over a year was virtually unchanged.


They reduced available play by 50% and saw little change in utilization. Why? Because before when there were more “prime” tee time players would only select those, creating large periods of condensed play that trickled down to impact less condensed play. The courses overall utilization was significantly less than full. When the number of “prime” tee times were reduced players would select any tee time available and the course utilization was higher. Which was boosted by the improved pace of play.


i.e. if before it was understood that you had to play before 9 to play a at a reasonable pace it now became possible and more acceptable to play after 10 and experience an even better pace.

That's interesting, so a real, actual example.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I slow play solution I would like to see experimented with is twin par threes.

One of the perks of operating the wiki in the very early days is than anyone who uploaded their course obviously loved it, and they were all really unique and interesting. One of those courses was RTJ's Raymond Memorial. Every par three on this course has a twin hole (you can seen here). Now, the course apparently uses these holes as teaching holes, but I've always been curious to see what effect they would have on allowing faster groups to pass slower groups. It could spell disaster and fist-fights, but it could prove especially effective as this is the type of course where beginners play along side weekend warriors.

Just a thought, and I would love to be able to run a pitch them doing a study there to see what effect letting faster players 'lap' slower groups. (especially twosomes passing foursomes)

[Garland Bayley]

...

The research suggests an absolute minimum of 10 minutes (or we invite 5+ hours), but the theoretical test course started getting consistent 4 hour rounds somewhere around 15 minutes,

My former club used 8 minute intervals, and had no problem. If you were going to play in four hours, you were expected to play in the afternoon when the tee sheet was not full.

Seems to me the research is lacking. People and their personal practices is the problem. It's a culture thing. If you are going to do research, you need to understand that.

An easy thing to anecdotally state, but a very difficult thing to demonstrate. I don’t doubt a course can get folks around in under 4 hours when they tee off within a couple hours of sunrise. The research shows this is trivial. Afternoon rounds under 5 hours aren’t somehow irrelevant.

Easy to demonstrate. Get invited as a guest for a midmorning tee time, and try to play at a 4 hour pace. People will drive their carts forward to tell you that you are playing too slow.

Marine Drive CC in Vancouver BC had time cards to punch in at start of round, and out at end of round with large signs in locker room stating you were expected to play in 3:45 or less.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Easy to demonstrate. Get invited as a guest for a midmorning tee time, and try to play at a 4 hour pace. People will drive their carts forward to tell you that you are playing too slow.

Marine Drive CC in Vancouver BC had time cards to punch in at start of round, and out at end of round with large signs in locker room stating you were expected to play in 3:45 or less.

I feel like I'm repeating myself. The research suggest that sub-4 hour rounds are trivial in the morning, especially the early morning:

"Morning rounds averaged 4 hours and 2 minutes while afternoon rounds averaged 4 hours and 21 minutes."

Source: The Status of Pace of Play in American Golf, Lucius J. Riccio Ph.D.

Of the 175 course they studied, 9 courses averaged at or below 3:45 rounds. About 33 averaged below 4:00. These are not morning number, these are averages. Mornings averaged about 20mins faster than afternoon rounds.

It's certainly possible that a private club obsessed with pace of play could do this, especially mid-morning. Still, to maintain 3:45 across the morning at 8 minute intervals would be remarkable. If, however, there is a culture of gallery drops, fluffed lies, and automatic 2 putt pick ups for pace (or a 3 putt max), I could see how this pace could be maintained via peer pressure. It becomes harder to argue, though, that these folks are still playing the same game. I occasionally saw this type of behavior from the Olympic Club members when I was a member at Harding. A cultural expectation I presume, but one that leaves one with precarious handicap at best and a vanity handicap at worst.

[John Kavanaugh]

How much time is added to a round when letting a twosome play though on a 400 yd hole. You’ve hit your tee shots and wave them
through when you see them on the tee.

[Rob Marshall]

Easy to demonstrate. Get invited as a guest for a midmorning tee time, and try to play at a 4 hour pace. People will drive their carts forward to tell you that you are playing too slow.

Marine Drive CC in Vancouver BC had time cards to punch in at start of round, and out at end of round with large signs in locker room stating you were expected to play in 3:45 or less.

I feel like I'm repeating myself. The research suggest that sub-4 hour rounds are trivial in the morning, especially the early morning:

"Morning rounds averaged 4 hours and 2 minutes while afternoon rounds averaged 4 hours and 21 minutes."

Source: The Status of Pace of Play in American Golf, Lucius J. Riccio Ph.D.

Of the 175 course they studied, 9 courses averaged at or below 3:45 rounds. About 33 averaged below 4:00. These are not morning number, these are averages. Mornings averaged about 20mins faster than afternoon rounds.

It's certainly possible that a private club obsessed with pace of play could do this, especially mid-morning. Still, to maintain 3:45 across the morning at 8 minute intervals would be remarkable. If, however, there is a culture of gallery drops, fluffed lies, and automatic 2 putt pick ups for pace (or a 3 putt max), I could see how this pace could be maintained via peer pressure. It becomes harder to argue, though, that these folks are still playing the same game. I occasionally saw this type of behavior from the Olympic Club members when I was a member at Harding. A cultural expectation I presume, but one that leaves one with precarious handicap at best and a vanity handicap at worst.

Never head such a thing as automatic 2 putts or 3 putt max. That’s ridiculous.

[SB]

How much time is added to a round when letting a twosome play though on a 400 yd hole. You’ve hit your tee shots and wave them
through when you see them on the tee.

On a full tee sheet, one tee time, or around 10 minutes.  And that amount is added to every tee time for the rest of the day.  Essentially what is happening is that the second group continues playing at a normal speed, and the first group "inserts" themselves as a new tee time between the second and third groups.  Everyone behind them has to slow down to wait for the new "extra" group.


As a golf course owner watching the sheet, one habit that has really taken a large toll on weekend times is the habit of two twosomes paired up together breaking themselves up into two groups.  Twosomes that don't know each other will decide on the third hole to let one of the groups stay back and now there are two groups.  Each time this happens, it adds 10 minutes to everyone's round for the rest of the day.  If it happens once an hour, 10 minute intervals become 8.5 minute intervals, and if it happens twice in an hour, you are now down to six minute intervals.  And I can assure you it happens a lot.  When the marshall catches them on the 6th hole, he will ask what happens and the answer is either "this is the way we teed off" which is a lie, or, "those guys were really slow so we left them".  Usually also a lie.  We make a point of telling people on the first tee to not break up and it doesn't matter.  By the time we catch them the damage is done.


Scolding by marshalls, at least in the US, will be promptly answered by 1 star reviews on Google.  "Your starter is incredibly rude" is the most common verbiage.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Scolding by marshalls, at least in the US, will be promptly answered by 1 star reviews on Google.  "Your starter is incredibly rude" is the most common verbiage.

I think an off-topic discussion of marshalls/starters interaction strategy could be fascinating. I certainly know it's an impossible job to police your own customers, but I think it's a place where courses with the budgets could really benefit from highly skilled people to handle these situations.

I know one of my fondest memories of my visit to Pasatiempo was that the starter seemingly-genuine interested in the idea behind the wiki, and walked me through every hole, giving me incredible notes, and pointing out on the map I'd printed out where these features were. I'm very proud of the course guide that came out of that 10 minute conversation, even if it's had a few edits from kind strangers in the last year-and-a-half.

The starter at Northwood had exactly the opposite reaction. When I started explaining the project, he moaned "just tell me what you're trying to sell already." I told him that I wasn't selling him anything, and the point was that the guides are free and could be helpful to players, handed him what I had, and just walked away.

I've have very similar reactions in groups suffering from pace issues. Getting barked at because "we're two holes behind" after a group ahead of us quits because of slow pace, while at other courses, having a marshal talk to me, realize I'm a thoughtful, 20+ year player, and basically working with me to encourage my foursome to pick up the pace. I've had friends yelled at... at beginners' par-3 courses, for not having perfect etiquette. It's wild how much these interactions affect or impress me.

If I ever end up working at a course, it'll be a focus of mine. I know that the starter and the marshal wield so much outsized power that when I see a course that has a thoughtful starter/marshal, I make a mental note, because I suspect that thoughtfulness will exist in other nuanced corners of the business.

[Charlie Goerges]

You always hope that marshals and starters will have both a high golf IQ and a high emotional IQ. Sometimes they have one or the other, sometimes neither, but the good ones can have a positive impact. I wonder how much most marshals are empowered to actually do though. The ones at the course I worked as a kid could talk or encourage people to follow the rules, but I don't believe they were ever really empowered to do more than that. Maybe that was odd and most have some real consequences at their disposal?

[Garland Bayley]

Never head such a thing as automatic 2 putts or 3 putt max. That’s ridiculous.

It's a crutch that low handicappers use to maintain their vanity handicaps. Adds money to my pocket. My how they whine about lost money.

[Garland Bayley]

Easy to demonstrate. Get invited as a guest for a midmorning tee time, and try to play at a 4 hour pace. People will drive their carts forward to tell you that you are playing too slow.

Marine Drive CC in Vancouver BC had time cards to punch in at start of round, and out at end of round with large signs in locker room stating you were expected to play in 3:45 or less.

I feel like I'm repeating myself. The research suggest that sub-4 hour rounds are trivial in the morning, especially the early morning:

"Morning rounds averaged 4 hours and 2 minutes while afternoon rounds averaged 4 hours and 21 minutes."

Source: The Status of Pace of Play in American Golf, Lucius J. Riccio Ph.D.

Of the 175 course they studied, 9 courses averaged at or below 3:45 rounds. About 33 averaged below 4:00. These are not morning number, these are averages. Mornings averaged about 20mins faster than afternoon rounds.

It's certainly possible that a private club obsessed with pace of play could do this, especially mid-morning. Still, to maintain 3:45 across the morning at 8 minute intervals would be remarkable. If, however, there is a culture of gallery drops, fluffed lies, and automatic 2 putt pick ups for pace (or a 3 putt max), I could see how this pace could be maintained via peer pressure. It becomes harder to argue, though, that these folks are still playing the same game. I occasionally saw this type of behavior from the Olympic Club members when I was a member at Harding. A cultural expectation I presume, but one that leaves one with precarious handicap at best and a vanity handicap at worst.

"Nine courses averaged at or below 3:45." There you have it! Proof that it is the golfer that is the culprit. These nine courses have polite golfers that exhibit a concern for others by not unduly slowing other golfers down by using useless tactics for their lousy games.

[Matt Schoolfield]

P implies Q, Q, therefore P


Unfortunately, this is not a valid argument. These courses very likely have other pace of play advantages that contribute to the low averages.

[Garland Bayley]

P implies Q, Q, therefore P


Unfortunately, this is not a valid argument. These courses very likely have other pace of play advantages that contribute to the low averages.

So how do you explain Kevin Na shooting 69 in the 2016 FedEx Championship in 1 hour 59 minutes? Player behavior is the primary cause of slow play! Kevin Na can cause a round to be completed in under 2 hours or in over 5 hours.

[Matt Schoolfield]

We are going in circles. I’ve already explained the secondary effects caused by course layout, and intervals. If you’re uninterested in their influence on pace through the day, that’s fine.


I appreciate you hearing me out, even if I have not convinced you.

[Garland Bayley]

...
It's certainly possible that a private club obsessed with pace of play could do this, especially mid-morning. Still, to maintain 3:45 across the morning at 8 minute intervals would be remarkable. If, however, there is a culture of gallery drops, fluffed lies, and automatic 2 putt pick ups for pace (or a 3 putt max), I could see how this pace could be maintained via peer pressure. It becomes harder to argue, though, that these folks are still playing the same game.
...

When you stop insulting serious golfers with accusations of rules violations being necessary for them to maintain a quick pace of play, then maybe we can stop going in circles.

[Rob Marshall]

...
It's certainly possible that a private club obsessed with pace of play could do this, especially mid-morning. Still, to maintain 3:45 across the morning at 8 minute intervals would be remarkable. If, however, there is a culture of gallery drops, fluffed lies, and automatic 2 putt pick ups for pace (or a 3 putt max), I could see how this pace could be maintained via peer pressure. It becomes harder to argue, though, that these folks are still playing the same game.
...

When you stop insulting serious golfers with accusations of rules violations being necessary for them to maintain a quick pace of play, then maybe we can stop going in circles.

I consider myself a serious golfer and never in my life have I played auto 2 putts or 3 putt max.  I do still remember my last 4 putt…..

[jeffwarne]

How much time is added to a round when letting a twosome play though on a 400 yd hole. You’ve hit your tee shots and wave them
through when you see them on the tee.

On a full tee sheet, one tee time, or around 10 minutes.  And that amount is added to every tee time for the rest of the day.  Essentially what is happening is that the second group continues playing at a normal speed, and the first group "inserts" themselves as a new tee time between the second and third groups.  Everyone behind them has to slow down to wait for the new "extra" group.


As a golf course owner watching the sheet, one habit that has really taken a large toll on weekend times is the habit of two twosomes paired up together breaking themselves up into two groups.  Twosomes that don't know each other will decide on the third hole to let one of the groups stay back and now there are two groups.  Each time this happens, it adds 10 minutes to everyone's round for the rest of the day.  If it happens once an hour, 10 minute intervals become 8.5 minute intervals, and if it happens twice in an hour, you are now down to six minute intervals.  And I can assure you it happens a lot.  When the marshall catches them on the 6th hole, he will ask what happens and the answer is either "this is the way we teed off" which is a lie, or, "those guys were really slow so we left them".  Usually also a lie.  We make a point of telling people on the first tee to not break up and it doesn't matter.  By the time we catch them the damage is done.

Pure gold.
And it's nearly always a two ball complaining about a "slow foursome".


It takes skill and experience to book,start,  ranger and space groups properly.
And an informed ranger can be very helpful to customers- or if uninformed of current information, a menace.
There is ALWAYS a group telling management the group in front is "2 holes behind" even when you've just come from that area and know that to be false.


Amazingly  very few know how much time has elapsed since  they teed off, but we know exactly-which is powerful ammunition.

[Richard Hetzel]

I think most of the problem with slow play is people who go out to golf and really don't play on a regular basis. Most courses do a POOR job of educating players as to the pace of play and "ready golf" expectations.


I played a nice county course Sat afternoon that the starter told me that they are always booked solid, especially since another nearby course was sold off for housing.


We had a twosome in front of us playing quite slow. We eventually figured out the problem. They literally refused to tee off until AFTER the group ahead walked off the green; this included not just par threes, but every par four and par five as well. We tried to skip ahead but ended up only getting 17 holes in due to darkness. When I asked why they were waiting to tee of on every hole their response was "We are being polite." Unless you hit it 450-550 off the tee all you are doing is making everyone behind you MAD. Regardless of ability, a round should be no more than 4.5 hours, or less. No ranger at all, and the starter only came out to find the golf carts as it was getting dark. When I played Links at Lawsonia last summer my round was only 4.75 hours and I waited on almost every hole, felt like 6 hours. If the course is that backed up and busy they definitely need to have someone out and about speeding up play.

[Ian Cox]

...

The research suggests an absolute minimum of 10 minutes (or we invite 5+ hours), but the theoretical test course started getting consistent 4 hour rounds somewhere around 15 minutes,

My former club used 8 minute intervals, and had no problem. If you were going to play in four hours, you were expected to play in the afternoon when the tee sheet was not full.

Seems to me the research is lacking. People and their personal practices is the problem. It's a culture thing. If you are going to do research, you need to understand that.

[Ian Cox]

...

The research suggests an absolute minimum of 10 minutes (or we invite 5+ hours), but the theoretical test course started getting consistent 4 hour rounds somewhere around 15 minutes,

My former club used 8 minute intervals, and had no problem. If you were going to play in four hours, you were expected to play in the afternoon when the tee sheet was not full.

Seems to me the research is lacking. People and their personal practices is the problem. It's a culture thing. If you are going to do research, you need to understand that.

Good old research… here’s my experience…
Eight minute tee times…
After eighty minutes you have ten groups/games on the course…
very fast, and I mean very fast, play nine holes in an hour and forty minutes.
With that being absolutely the case, we now have ten groups on seven holes…
Let’s  double that and we now have 20 groups on the course in two hours and forty minutes…
How many holes are played in two hours and forty minutes?
The average at the best privates is fourteen…
QED, you have twenty groups on fourteen holes…
Nearly half the course has two groups on the same hole…
That’s not research…
That’s how it is…
Eight minutes works for two ball play…

[Craig Sweet]

What I see...


Golfers playing from a tee not appropriate for their ability.


Golfers doing their best Keegan Bradley pre shot routine.


Golfers that have no idea how to play from a cart.


Golfers taking do overs.


Golfers spending 15 minutes looking for a $2 ball


No on course marshall

[Tim Martin]

What I see...


Golfers playing from a tee not appropriate for their ability.


Golfers doing their best Keegan Bradley pre shot routine.


Golfers that have no idea how to play from a cart.


Golfers taking do overs.


Golfers spending 15 minutes looking for a $2 ball


No on course marshall

Ball retrievers should be banished. I’ve never watched anyone that’s content with only fishing out just their own ball and not every other one that they thought was within reach.

[Sean_A]

While the GB&I game has slowed down in recent years, it’s still rare for me to play 4ball in over 4 hours. Played a 2ball yesterday in 3 hours without rushing..teed off at 11:30. Maybe some of the earnest research should be conducted in countries interested in playing golf a bit quicker. I really don’t know what is going on in the US, but I have rarely experienced terribly slow play in the US. Maybe it’s the courses I choose to play. I thought Forest Dunes Loop might be slow. Nope.

I get the impression the biggest reason for slow play is slow play culture. Sure, the walk matters, but that is usually mitigated with carts. It absolutely blows my mind that a 4ball in carts can’t comfortably finish in 4 hours. This makes it very obvious to me that the culture is the issue.

Ciao

[Tim_Weiman]

I slow play solution I would like to see experimented with is twin par threes.

One of the perks of operating the wiki in the very early days is than anyone who uploaded their course obviously loved it, and they were all really unique and interesting. One of those courses was RTJ's Raymond Memorial. Every par three on this course has a twin hole (you can seen here). Now, the course apparently uses these holes as teaching holes, but I've always been curious to see what effect they would have on allowing faster groups to pass slower groups. It could spell disaster and fist-fights, but it could prove especially effective as this is the type of course where beginners play along side weekend warriors.

Just a thought, and I would love to be able to run a pitch them doing a study there to see what effect letting faster players 'lap' slower groups. (especially twosomes passing foursomes)

Matt,


Thrilled to hear you mention Raymond Memorial. More than 40 years ago my boss and I drove to Columbus from Cleveland to play Raymond.


This was on a Saturday morning in February when the temperature was mid 20s, but we got lucky. The temperature in Columbus was about 34 degrees.


Good enough! ………  for a couple young guys from Cleveland dying to play. I think I shot a 90. Pretty damn good in near freezing weather.


Would I do that today? Hell no.


Anyway, that alternate Par 3 idea sounds interesting, especially for a public course.

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