Mountain Collective

[Craig Sweet]

Five continents, 24 resorts, 48 days of skiing...$630


It's only a matter of time before golf totally embraces this concept.

[Tom_Doak]

Five continents, 24 resorts, 48 days of skiing...$630

It's only a matter of time before golf totally embraces this concept.

What exactly is the concept?


I'm assuming Aspen and St. Moritz are not part of the collective.  So is this a bunch of B-grade resorts getting together?  And how many potential customers ski on more than one or two continents per year?

[Craig Sweet]

Ski resorts consolidate....leading to one pass gets you on any mountain in the collective....the Dormie Club looks like this model sorta




"There were 473 ski areas in the United States that operated during the 2022-23 season.[/size] [/color][/size]In 1970, there were over 1,000. Over the last 10 years, the number has fluctuated mostly in the 470 range. Some new resorts have opened, some have closed, and even others have re-opened. [/color][/size]Of the 473 ski areas that operated last season, 103 of those are owned by only 11 corporations. This is approximately 22% of all resorts and represents a substantial part. However, it also means that roughly 78% of the ski areas are still independently owned.[/color]
[/size]Example...A collective pass that would get you on a dozen resort courses in the Rockies  The Wilderness Club  to Old Works on south through Wyoming to New Mexico...all at a discount to regular fees[/color]
[/size][/color]

[Tom_Doak]

If The Dormie Club ever gets to the point where it's offering rounds for $13, let me know and I will consider joining . . . even though none of their courses have any particular interest for me.

[Joe_Tucholski]

ClubCorp/InvitedClubs is kind of like the Mountain Collective.  Dormie Club is kind of like Icon/Epic.


Tom Aspen Snowmass (Aspen, Aspen Highlands, Buttermilk and Snowmass) is part of the Mountain Collective so you get 2 days of skiing at Aspen with the mountain collective pass.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom, When 22% of all resort courses are owned by 11 companies we might get down to $13 a round     

[David_Tepper]

Info here:

https://mountaincollective.com

[David Kelly]

Five continents, 24 resorts, 48 days of skiing...$630

It's only a matter of time before golf totally embraces this concept.

What exactly is the concept?


I'm assuming Aspen and St. Moritz are not part of the collective.  So is this a bunch of B-grade resorts getting together?  And how many potential customers ski on more than one or two continents per year?

The Mountain Collective pass basically gives you 2 days of lift tickets per resort and then a 50% price reduction for the tickets after that.  I think you get resort discounts as well but it is basically a lift ticket package.


They have some really good resorts listed - Revelstoke, Alta, Sun Valley, Jackson Hole, Aspen Snowmass, Big Sky, Snowbasin, Chaminox...

[Ben Sims]

Lift pass collectives aren’t very comparable to golf in my opinion. Just using Colorado as an example, Vail Mountain Resorts (VMR) owns five resorts here: Vail, Beaver Creek, Crested Butte, Breckenridge, and Keystone. You could make a case that Vail is one of the top five resorts in the country, if not the world. On the other end, Keystone is at least in the Top 40 of US mountains. I say that to say this, the quality is very high. These aren't B-grade experiences.


And yet…my unlimited pass to them costs 550 bucks. It’s less than 1000 for civilians. What’s more, my two Kindergarten through 5th grade aged kids get four days at each of those five mountains for free. Free!


Now imagine Bandon, Sand Valley, Streamsong, and Rodeo Dunes (once built) offer a punch card or “membership” for greens fees at a comparable price. And free golf for kids up to 11 years old. Yeah, not happening. I say again, ski economics are a different animal.

[Charlie Goerges]

offer[ing] a punch card or “membership” for greens fees at a comparable price. And free golf for kids up to 11 years old. Yeah, not happening.

You're probably right, but you state it like it's self-evident. I don't think it is self-evident, so why is it you'd say it's not possible?

[Ben Sims]

offer[ing] a punch card or “membership” for greens fees at a comparable price. And free golf for kids up to 11 years old. Yeah, not happening.

You're probably right, but you state it like it's self-evident. I don't think it is self-evident, so why is it you'd say it's not possible?

Charlie, how goes it.


I think it *is* self-evident based on a couple of factors.


1) these ski resorts aren’t exactly the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail level of resorts. They’re top tier. Like it or not, Vail, Park City, Whistler (Epic) or Aspen, Steamboat, Snowbird/Alta, Jackson Hole (Ikon) are the Bandon/Pinehurst/Pebble level of ski resorts.


2) the economics of golf make it virtually impossible for the tipy-top tier of public golf experiences to do that. And as we’ve seen in skiing, having a large conglomerate manage the access while the resort is still privately owned isn’t exactly a panacea for employees or the customer.

[Tim Martin]

From a value play perspective I think the lift pass collective is the winner. If you are intrepid enough to really explore what the Icon lift collective offers you can visit fifty six resorts on five continents for $1259 which includes all access with no blackout dates. Even if only used modestly in one region(New England as an example) it’s worth having.

[Charlie Goerges]

2) the economics of golf make it virtually impossible for the tipy-top tier of public golf experiences to do that.

Is this due to the law of supply and demand or are the margins so thin they couldn't afford to heavily discount a portion of greenfees?


For the ski passes, I assume there is no discount on lodging?

[Tim Martin]

2) the economics of golf make it virtually impossible for the tipy-top tier of public golf experiences to do that.

Is this due to the law of supply and demand or are the margins so thin they couldn't afford to heavily discount a portion of greenfees?


For the ski passes, I assume there is no discount on lodging?

Charlie-I saw on the Icon website that they provide a service to their members called Icon Travel that can customize entire trips in one place. I didn’t check into whether there are any pass holder discounts with affiliates. I have to think that lodging, flights and rental cars would be referred to competitive vendors.

[Kalen Braley]

I wonder if the price difference lie in the amount of people you can have on the mountain vs the course.

Golf would seem far more restrictive in that you generally only have a 4-5 hour time window with only X amount of groups on the course at any give point in time.

Skiing thou, how many can you have on the mountain at once with the added ability to take breaks as you please and then resume?

[Matt Schoolfield]

A ski resort provides effectively the same product if 4 people or 1000 people are using the slope at 8 AM. Golf courses don’t have economies of scale to create an incentive to bring everyone under one umbrella.

[Peter Sayegh]

Five continents, 24 resorts, 48 days of skiing...$630
It's only a matter of time before golf totally embraces this concept.

Travel expenses included?

[Ben Sims]

2) the economics of golf make it virtually impossible for the tipy-top tier of public golf experiences to do that.

Is this due to the law of supply and demand or are the margins so thin they couldn't afford to heavily discount a portion of greenfees?


For the ski passes, I assume there is no discount on lodging?

Well, for one it’s economies of scale, as has been mentioned already here. The best resorts can operate on a customer model tens of hundreds of times larger than a golf resort can.


And also, people are willing to pay. That’s kind of the biggest thing right? Market bears what it bears. Single day lift ticket to some of these places is actually comparable to the greens fee at a top tier public resort course. But a plain vanilla civilian Epic pass is 900 or so. Do the math, amirite?


Lastly, ski resorts are incentivized to get people to the mountain towns. Then they can charge what they want for food and lodging whether on the resort or off. Golf resorts have figured this out too. But they’ve also figured out that people will come no matter what they’re charging for greens fees, as I mentioned above.


Some more reasons that the economics of skiing and top tier public golf are different.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I bought an Epic Local Pass this past year and skied 31 days, and I have for the past 20 years. The pass cost about $700, which comes to about $22.50 a day. Vail sold 2,300,000 different passes for the 22/23 season. They own hotels, restaurants, and other shops. They own 37 different resorts. They make bunches of money on volume. If you ski at a little resort in MI but buy the Epic Pass, you get to ski in CO, Utah, Vermont, Canada, and Europe. It's good for the consumer and good for the company.

[Tom_Doak]

I bought an Epic Local Pass this past year and skied 31 days, and I have for the past 20 years. The pass cost about $700, which comes to about $22.50 a day. Vail sold 2,300,000 different passes for the 22/23 season.

Well, there’s the difference.  Bandon Dunes only has capacity for 1/10 as much use, so each round is 10x the price.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Golf has no reason to do this as demand > supply for the high end golf courses and the courses are often sold out.  Do ski resorts sell out very often?

[Craig Sweet]

Kalen, Old Works has had several 240 player days this summer. That's a foursome every 10 minutes for 10 hours.  I think the lack of capacity is what holds back this concept from infesting golf.  But, if we get back to pre pandemic numbers lots of courses will be looking for bodies to fill their tee sheets.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, Old Works has had several 240 player days this summer. That's a foursome every 10 minutes for 10 hours.  I think the lack of capacity is what holds back this concept from infesting golf.  But, if we get back to pre pandemic numbers lots of courses will be looking for bodies to fill their tee sheets.

Makes perfect sense, its a limit to the number of people you can fit on the course...

And i'm guessing the cost per acre to maintain a ski resort vs a golf course is a lot less, but only a guess.

P.S.  This past winter, we had such an epic snow year in Utah they actually had to limit access to a few resorts, but that was mostly due to limited parking and treacherous roads that are one way in and one way out.  We had a few times where people got stuck at the resort for 3-5 days due to avalanches and bad conditions.

[Joe_Tucholski]

I'll stick with the stance that I see similarities.  Sure, they're not exactly the same for a lot of the reasons mentioned.

When I look at private golf I think it's basically the model of a season pass at one mountain.  You get people to pay a fee in advance that covers the operating expenses.  Unaccompanied guests/monday events are kind of like the day passes at ski resorts, extra money and sometimes discouraged/not allowed.

The idea of bundling lots of mountains is what I see as the model behind something like ClubCorp, Dormie Club, Icon Golf, TPC Network, Troon Prive.  Bundle multiple assets to share some of the administrative burdens.  Profits in some locations support the areas that don't do as well.  Spread the burdens of big repairs/improvements that can be a really high percentage of revenue if you only owned one location.  Get people to sign up because "hey I'm getting more for my money."

[Joe_Tucholski]

Lift pass collectives aren’t very comparable to golf in my opinion. Just using Colorado as an example, Vail Mountain Resorts (VMR) owns five resorts here: Vail, Beaver Creek, Crested Butte, Breckenridge, and Keystone. You could make a case that Vail is one of the top five resorts in the country, if not the world. On the other end, Keystone is at least in the Top 40 of US mountains. I say that to say this, the quality is very high. These aren't B-grade experiences.


And yet…my unlimited pass to them costs 550 bucks. It’s less than 1000 for civilians. What’s more, my two Kindergarten through 5th grade aged kids get four days at each of those five mountains for free. Free!


Now imagine Bandon, Sand Valley, Streamsong, and Rodeo Dunes (once built) offer a punch card or “membership” for greens fees at a comparable price. And free golf for kids up to 11 years old. Yeah, not happening. I say again, ski economics are a different animal.

Keystone as top 40 would be the equivalent of the 1342 ranked golf course.  Also, Keystone isn't the other end of the Vail resort spectrum.  I haven't skied the mountains in Missouri but figure they are less than B-grade (I have skied Liberty and it is less then B-grade when compared to Vail.


Many golf courses across the country let junior golfers play for free.  Pebble Beach allowed juniors to play Del Monte for free when I was in high school.  The Kaiser owned properties are like top 1%.  I agree their model is very different but that doesn't mean there isn't a similar model in the golf world to that used for many ski resorts.  It's just the majority of golf courses aren't using the large portfolio model for a number of reasons.

A ski resort provides effectively the same product if 4 people or 1000 people are using the slope at 8 AM. Golf courses don’t have economies of scale to create an incentive to bring everyone under one umbrella.

Waiting in a lift line sucks just as much as waiting on the tee for the group in front.  Both occur.  Having 1000 people on Vail (capacity of 19,900/day) would be like playing a course with less than 2 groups.

I bought an Epic Local Pass this past year and skied 31 days, and I have for the past 20 years. The pass cost about $700, which comes to about $22.50 a day. Vail sold 2,300,000 different passes for the 22/23 season. They own hotels, restaurants, and other shops. They own 37 different resorts. They make bunches of money on volume. If you ski at a little resort in MI but buy the Epic Pass, you get to ski in CO, Utah, Vermont, Canada, and Europe. It's good for the consumer and good for the company.

Plenty of golfers get their cost per round to a similar number as your cost per day.  I've had a lower cost per round multiple years.  For the 21/22 ski season Vail reported 16.2 million visits and 2.1 million passes were sold.  That means the average number of visits per pass holder is less than 8, probably closer to 7 accounting for single day lift tickets.