Protesting golf

[Rob Marshall]

Matt,


I don’t worry about what you call golf’s branding problem.


Why?


Because most golf courses in the United States are public and anyone can play.


There are lots of public courses that are enjoyable to play.

I grew up playing a muni in Rochester NY for a $7 dollar annual permit and 50 cents a round.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,


What are you personally doing besides talking?


Just one thing that I’m not.

[Matt Schoolfield]

What are you personally doing besides talking?


Just one thing that I’m not.

I obviously don't know what you're doing, but I can be forward about where I try to effectively do what I can. Obviously the first issue is to know what is feasible where you live. Where I live in Northern California, GHG emissions are mostly tied to personal transportation and residential nat-gas use. Here, I also have access to renewable electricity, so tradeoffs between fuel vs electricity actually matters (unlike much of the US). 

I live in an urban core, so I don't actually own a car right now, but will occasionally borrow my partner's small car. I've effectively been low-car for my entire life at this point (even when I was in Austin). The vast majority of my transportation is by foot or bicycle, e.g. most of my trips to my local club are by e-bike, which takes some getting used to (hence the annoyance with lack of bike parking). I try to avoid ruminates when I eat. I rent unfortunately, but we've got our electric plan set up to purchase generally from renewables (the idea is to provide a premium for suppliers), and swap gas for electric where we can.

Given my location, I think it's an effective way to reduce my impact, but I'm not vegetarian or anything. Your mileage may vary depending on where you live, and obviously much of our emissions are tied to our local infrastructure, and isn't really anyone's fault, which is why I've been a pretty serious density and transportation-alternatives advocate. I think the best thing most folks can do in their lives to fight climate change without giving up anything is to just support legalizing high-density walkable development in urban cores, but this has become a bit of a generational issue, as the benefits of suburbia clash with urban parking shortages, when urban cores start becoming walkable.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks. I’m 63 and no longer feel safe in existing high density urban cores. Makes me sad that as even as late as last year my partner and I were looking at condos in Chicago. I just don’t have the balls.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Thanks. I’m 63 and no longer feel safe in existing high density urban cores. Makes me sad that as even as late as last year my partner and I were looking at condos in Chicago. I just don’t have the balls.

No problem. I must say, when I say "high density" I just mean three-to-six unit flats, not high rises.

[John Kavanaugh]

You got me there. Sounds great if you are under 40 or over 80. Hope it works.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt,


I don’t worry about what you call golf’s branding problem.


Why?


Because most golf courses in the United States are public and anyone can play.


There are lots of public courses that are enjoyable to play.

I grew up playing a muni in Rochester NY for a $7 dollar annual permit and 50 cents a round.

Rob,


Do you know what that costs today?

[Matthew Rose]

Golf it seems has become something of a scapegoat for climate issues, economic issues, lack of housing and lack of green space.

It's been a hotbed issue in Denver lately with the closure of the Park Hill public course and the resulting legal battles over what to do with it. A developer bought it and wanted to turn it into retail space, but the voters rejected this on the caveat that it could be turned into public space in spite of a convenant that stated the land must be used for golf. Nobody seems to want the golf course rebuilt.

It wasn't a great golf course but it was affordable, in good condition, and very playable. In terms of architectural merit, it would be near zero.

It seems like these are the courses that are the first to be plowed under. It always seems to be the municipal golfer that loses out.

[Sean_A]

Golf it seems has become something of a scapegoat for climate issues, economic issues, lack of housing and lack of green space.

It's been a hotbed issue in Denver lately with the closure of the Park Hill public course and the resulting legal battles over what to do with it. A developer bought it and wanted to turn it into retail space, but the voters rejected this on the caveat that it could be turned into public space in spite of a convenant that stated the land must be used for golf. Nobody seems to want the golf course rebuilt.

It wasn't a great golf course but it was affordable, in good condition, and very playable. In terms of architectural merit, it would be near zero.

It seems like these are the courses that are the first to be plowed under. It always seems to be the municipal golfer that loses out.

Unless a muni can generate a decent profit golf is fairly poor on resident bang for acre. Broadly speaking, the space used for golf needs to deliver more than golf. Even when habitat protection and enhancement is provided, how many people get to enjoy it unless the space is used for more than golf? If these spaces are going to be multi purpose, equipment rollback could prove to be a boon for future projects.

BTW...rich folks behaviour ain't gonna change, that doesn't mean it doesn't need a ticking off once in a while.

Ciao

[Tim_Weiman]

Golf it seems has become something of a scapegoat for climate issues, economic issues, lack of housing and lack of green space.

It's been a hotbed issue in Denver lately with the closure of the Park Hill public course and the resulting legal battles over what to do with it. A developer bought it and wanted to turn it into retail space, but the voters rejected this on the caveat that it could be turned into public space in spite of a convenant that stated the land must be used for golf. Nobody seems to want the golf course rebuilt.

It wasn't a great golf course but it was affordable, in good condition, and very playable. In terms of architectural merit, it would be near zero.

It seems like these are the courses that are the first to be plowed under. It always seems to be the municipal golfer that loses out.

Matthew,


Sorry to hear about Park Hill. I can certainly relate to your comments about the course.


As I have written here quite a few times, Cleveland, Ohio is one of the best places for the quantity of decent affordable golf.


Many of these courses were build after WW2 on land that was cheap though not too bad in terms of topography. I’m sure many, if not most, are debt free.


Then too, Cleveland Metroparks offers some really decent affordable golf, including Sleepy Hollow, a Stanley Thompson design where Charlie Sifford used to be the pro and his wife took green fees. There is also Manakiki, a Donald Ross that originally was a private club but strong left leanding Ohio Senator Howard Metzenbaum managed to get acquired by the Metroparks.


Perhaps an even better example is Big Met in Fairview Park, rumored to also be a Stanley Thompson design. Big Met presents itself as the busiest course in Ohio with more than 6 million rounds played since it opened.


Among its virtues are affordability: seniors can play 9 holes during the week for $13 and over the years it has maintained an ease for singles to walk on.


Architecturally,sure, there is little merit, with only 3-4 holes having something of interest, but people who play it aren’t well traveled golf architecture junkies.


Cleveland is an old rust belt working class town. Of course there are private clubs, but the real story is affordable public golf, thus it really doesn’t have a “branding” problem or an elitist image. The average guy can play no problem.

[Rob Marshall]

Matt,


I don’t worry about what you call golf’s branding problem.


Why?


Because most golf courses in the United States are public and anyone can play.


There are lots of public courses that are enjoyable to play.

I grew up playing a muni in Rochester NY for a $7 dollar annual permit and 50 cents a round.

Rob,


Do you know what that costs today?

Some friends just played it. I think it was $20 and that included a cart.

[Peter Sayegh]

Broadly speaking, the space used for golf needs to deliver more than golf. Even when habitat protection and enhancement is provided, how many people get to enjoy it unless the space is used for more than golf? 

Ciao

Best reply ever. I've been asked to leave many (public) courses with no players present and only a camera around my neck and that includes courses who know me as a frequent paying golfer.


Wonder how many of the lauded "Audobon certified" courses have walking hours.

[astavrides]

That is all fine and good, but it won't address climate change directly. The way golf clubs could actually do that (aside from general electrification where possible), is, well, using available space on a course for a small wind farm or solar. As to whether that's even allowable or practical, I have no idea. However, here is a huge turbine just off the property of Walmersley GC, and a small one at Sagamore GC. But, as Tom mentioned earlier, the fact is that most people would scuttle any plans for turbines for look-and-feel reasons alone. Personally, I would love to play a blustery links course that wound it's way through a wind farm.

(I thought I posted this last night, but I can't find it now...)
You can't really put solar on a course because of possible damage from flying balls, and for electrical safety reasons. Wind probably for the same reasons, but maybe not as obvious.
A couple courses here in NM have solar carports/canopies as their parking lots--shade plus electricity. More courses could use these.

[Tim_Weiman]

Broadly speaking, the space used for golf needs to deliver more than golf. Even when habitat protection and enhancement is provided, how many people get to enjoy it unless the space is used for more than golf? 

Ciao

Best reply ever. I've been asked to leave many (public) courses with no players present and only a camera around my neck and that includes courses who know me as a frequent paying golfer.


Wonder how many of the lauded "Audobon certified" courses have walking hours.

Peter,


How many Audubon certified courses have you tried to walk?


I actually belong to one: Sand Ridge in Cleveland. The back nine would be a nice walk. It is basically around about 100 acres of wetlands. Really pretty in the fall.

[Matt Schoolfield]

You can't really put solar on a course because of possible damage from flying balls, and for electrical safety reasons.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but my understanding is that it's entirely doable. Here is Laurel Lane CC's solar array which is not particularly for off the fairway (despite the name they are a public course). Here is an article about the array, and how it generates revenues for the course, especially in the off season.

Again, I don't know a ton on the subject, but I do know that solar panels can be build specifically to be resistant to hail and other impact damage. Obviously I think a course would need to be smart about it, like maybe don't put an array across the driving range, but it certainly seems feasible considering it's already being done.

[astavrides]

You can't really put solar on a course because of possible damage from flying balls, and for electrical safety reasons.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but my understanding is that it's entirely doable. Here is Laurel Lane Country Club's solar array with their array directly in the line of fire of errant drives (despite the name they are a public course). Here is an article about the array, and how it generates revenues for the course, especially in the off season.

Again, I don't know a ton on the subject, but I do know that solar panels can be build specifically to be resistant to hail and other impact damage. Obviously I think a course would need to be smart about it, like maybe don't put an array across the driving range, but it certainly seems feasible considering it's already being done.

Thanks for the links (and for your other posts and links in this thread). That seems insane to me. You weren't kidding about being in the line of fire (on 2 holes).


I hope the panels they installed had passed a hail test. Not all panels do. (Funny to see people jump and drive trucks on those Solarworld (NLE) panels. Panels get damaged all the time by rooftop installers putting weight on them. As the first comment said, the cells could definitely crack even if the front glass doesn't). Panels do sometimes get damaged in hail (not often, but when they do it's expensive), and golf balls are bigger and faster than most hail (though maybe more regular in shape).


One of the courses I mentioned in NM with the solar parking lot has a different solar installation at its sister casino that is 'potentially' in play for a very wicked duck hook (or, more likely, a vandalistic mulligan) off the #5 tee. As a result, they converted the hole from a par 4 to a par 3 (reducing the quality of the course) to reduce any possibility of the array getting hit.

And yeah, electrical safety. Not sure the 'danger, high voltage' sign would do the trick. If they really want people to keep out, they should have put a fence around it. I imagine like 30 people a day wanting to retrieve their slices in there. The project used trackers according to the article, so there will probably be more professionals there doing periodic maintenance than otherwise.


There was plenty of room in the parking lot for the solar canopy. I hope it works out for the course. Otherwise, it could give both solar and golf bad publicity.

[Kalen Braley]

And there are compelling POCs like Germany that meets nearly half of its electricity demand from renewables. That is a significant percentage.

" renewables will have produced 46 percent of German power consumption in 2022"

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/germany-sets-renewable-power-record-2022-track-2030-target

[Matt Schoolfield]

There was plenty of room in the parking lot for the solar canopy. I hope it works out for the course. Otherwise, it could give both solar and golf bad publicity.

I noticed in the article that it said the management company was planning on building another array on their other property Country View GC, and so I looked it up on google maps, and it looks like the array there has already been installed.

[astavrides]

There was plenty of room in the parking lot for the solar canopy. I hope it works out for the course. Otherwise, it could give both solar and golf bad publicity.

I noticed in the article that it said the management company was planning on building another array on their other property Country View GC, and so I looked it up on google maps, and it looks like the array there has already been installed.

another head scratcher. It's not exactly the field I work in (although I am trying to get into that field), so maybe there's something I'm missing. Gotta think the backsides of the panels could get hit too (on a bounce perhaps), and would be less golf ball resistant than the front, and cause similar damage.

[John McCarthy]

Jerks.

[Bruce Katona]

We here in The Great Garden State are attempting to abide by our State Commander in Chief (Gov. Murphy) to be fossil fuel car free & have all stoved be electric (most are natural gas currently).   Sounds good on paper & is a great soundbite for the Gov's aspirations of higher office as he is term-limited from running again to lead the state.


The challenge gets to be the current best way to produce the amount cost-effective low carbon footprint electricity required for these laudable goals is via nuclear power & that alternative doesn't poll well with the bugs & bunny tree huggers.


We have solar panels to augment current gas fired electric generating stations (which are quite clean) but we don't have hydro power power available like Canada does. 


While touting the idea of renewables, the bugs & bunny folks are fighting the installation of wind turbines off the NJ shore coast - which creates the Microsoft Excel circular error of renewable energy, but we don't like that idea of solving the problem.


PFC's in aerosol cans damaging the ozone layer was a big issue 40 years ago. Technology solved the problem.  We've got smart & motivated ($$$) folks working on global warming - they'll figure it out.


PS: while I haven't studied it, I do know the Earth has natural periods of warming & cooling - which have nothing to do with man-made causes/effects.

[size=78%] [/size]

[Ben Sims]

Perhaps the most productive thing would be for one side to stop painting the other side as F250’s rolling coal at the stoplight or hugging grasshoppers in a field of daisies.

[John Kavanaugh]

We need to do better than Give a hoot, don’t pollute. Why isn’t there a decent climate change slogan?

[John Kavanaugh]

Dominick the Donkey. Don’t be an Ass, pass on gas. All the while the other animals fart constantly, most especially the evil bovine. The moral of the story. We don’t eat Ass.

[Philip Caccamise]

Matt,


I don’t worry about what you call golf’s branding problem.


Why?


Because most golf courses in the United States are public and anyone can play.


There are lots of public courses that are enjoyable to play.

I grew up playing a muni in Rochester NY for a $7 dollar annual permit and 50 cents a round.

Rob,


Do you know what that costs today?

Tim- Permit play is $9 a round and the permit is now free.

https://monroecountyparksgolf.com/new-rates/