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Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Protesting golf
« on: July 24, 2023, 01:36:11 PM »

All for working on climate control but what's the point of this? Swearing and yelling that a guy's swing sucks?

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/climate-change-protest-sebonack-golf-club-hamptons
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2023, 02:22:46 PM »
Maybe they saw the shower heads? I do love an unsavory long shower. They have a point.


First step. I will shower only after golf in the future.

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2023, 04:42:11 PM »
Let them try that at a course in Texas and see what happens!!!!! ;D ;D ;D

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2023, 04:54:59 PM »
I suppose if "golfers" don't listen to the cries of this planet burning then more concerned voices will shout.


What is golf course architecture doing or even promising to substantially reduce the carbon footprint of golf courses.


Improving the biodiversity of rough areas is not substantial, it is the playing areas that must be adressed.


Do our GCA contributors have any suggestions, do they care?


Time to take our heads out of the bunkers and provide some lateral thinking?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2023, 05:42:11 PM »
This type of thing shouldn’t come as any surprise. Whatever their reasons there are loads of golf-haters out there and golf isn’t doing much to help itself.
It’s not an architectural issue though, it’s an R&A/USGA rules, equipment manufacturers, and course conditioning/expectations issue.
Playing over (and maintaining/irrigating) a smaller acreage would be a good place to start. And likely the best way to commence this is to rollback the bloody ball (and then maybe get rid of frying-pan drivers) and to start working with the sensible enviro-folks to highlight how golf can be good for the environment … lungs of the city, wildlife etc habitats.
The ball is the key though and the game and the planet are more important than a few selfish ball manufacturers.
And if the ball manufactures aren’t prepared to be helpful start embarrassing them as to why they, not golf in general, are the problem, the culprits in this matter, and let the protesters gather outside the ball manufacturers and their parent companies offices and at their shareholder meetings not on golf courses.
Atb

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2023, 07:46:42 PM »
This isn't a golf protest, otherwise they'd be protesting at Poxabogue Golf Course down the road. They are, quite obviously protesting because this course is in South Hampton, and even had a nice little article in Links Magazine about how ludicrously expensive it is to join.

The memberships of unwelcoming, private, exclusive golf club are a perfect metaphor for the types of folks who would happily ignore the concerns of the general public, simply because they can afford to do so. Climate change will be a mild annoyance to the folks at Sebonack, Shinnecock, and the National GL. It is exactly that folks who have $500k in disposable income, and choose to spend it on the frivolity of "slightly better golf," that makes these protestors angry.

Peter Singer illustrated these types of concerns in Famine, Affluence, and Morality (1972) (PDF):

Quote
if it is in our power to prevent something very bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything morally significant, we ought, morally, to do it. An application of this principle would be as follows: if I am walking past a shallow pond and see a child drowning in it, I ought to wade in and pull the child out. This will mean getting my clothes muddy, but this is insignificant, while the death of the child would presumably be a very bad thing.

The uncontroversial appearance of the principle just stated is deceptive. If it were acted upon, even in its qualified form, our lives, our society, and our world would be fundamentally changed. For the principle takes, firstly, no account of proximity or distance. It makes no moral difference whether the person I can help is a neighbor's child ten yards from me or a Bengali whose name I shall never know, ten thousand miles away. Secondly, the principle makes no distinction between cases in which I am the only person who could possibly do anything and cases in which I am just one among millions in the same position.

Singer went on to write exactly about how the impacts of individuals do matter in his 2009 book The Life You Can Save.

As we continue to watch the entirely predictable (hell, scientist were trying to explain to Jimmy Carter that exactly this would happen in 1979), slow-motion train wreck that is our climate downward spiral, we can expect that the people without the resources to do something to be angry with the folks who very much do have the physical and political capital to do something about it, but instead use that capital on "slightly better golf."

I love golf and I love golf architecture, but spending upwards of $50M (or at least half a million per member) to build another exclusive golf retreat in one of the most expensive areas of the country is a testament to placement of luxury and convenience by many of those who have the means to change things, over real and increasingly pressing concerns.

The cost of the club or that it's associated with golf doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of capital that is being spent on conspicuous consumption in the face of a very real, multi-pronged crisis of deteriorating quality-of-life for the next generations. I'm not trying to get on some easy, convenient soapbox here. I understand that people have choices in life, and personal quality of life matters. I'm just saying that a club like Sebonack does, even to me, seem like it's... a bit much.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2023, 10:17:09 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2023, 08:31:18 PM »
This isn't a golf protest, otherwise they'd be protesting at Poxabogue Golf Course down the road. They are, quite obviously protesting because this course is in South Hampton, and even had a nice little article in Links Magazine about how ludicrously expensive it is to join.

The memberships of unwelcoming, private, exclusive golf club are a perfect metaphor for the types of folks who would happily ignore the concerns of the general public, simply because the can afford to do so. Climate change will be a mild annoyance to the folks at Sebonack, Shinnecock, and the National GL. It is exactly that folks who have $500k in disposable income, and choose to spend it on the frivolity of "slightly better golf," that makes these protestors angry.

Peter Singer illustrated these types of concerns in Famine, Affluence, and Morality (1972) (PDF):

Quote
if it is in our power to prevent something very bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything morally significant, we ought, morally, to do it. An application of this principle would be as follows: if I am walking past a shallow pond and see a child drowning in it, I ought to wade in and pull the child out. This will mean getting my clothes muddy, but this is insignificant, while the death of the child would presumably be a very bad thing.

The uncontroversial appearance of the principle just stated is deceptive. If it were acted upon, even in its qualified form, our lives, our society, and our world would be fundamentally changed. For the principle takes, firstly, no account of proximity or distance. It makes no moral difference whether the person I can help is a neighbor's child ten yards from me or a Bengali whose name I shall never know, ten thousand miles away. Secondly, the principle makes no distinction between cases in which I am the only person who could possibly do anything and cases in which I am just one among millions in the same position.

Singer went on to write exactly about how the impacts of individuals do matter in his 2009 book The Life You Can Save.

As we continue to watch the entirely predictable (hell, scientist were trying to explain to Jimmy Carter that exactly this would happen in 1979), slow-motion train wreck that is our climate downward spiral, we can expect that the people without the resources to do something to be angry with the folks who very much do have the physical and political capital to do something about it, but instead use that capital on "slightly better golf."

I love golf and I love golf architecture, but spending upwards of $50M (or at least half a million per member) to build another exclusive golf retreat in one of the most expensive areas of the country is a testament to placement of luxury and convince by many of those who have the means to change things, over real and increasingly pressing concerns.

The cost of the club or that it's associated with golf doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of capital that is being spent on conspicuous consumption in the face of a very real, multi-pronged crisis of deteriorating quality-of-life for the next generations. I'm not trying to get on some easy, convenient soapbox here. I understand that people have choices in life, and personal quality of life matters. I'm just saying that a club like Sebonack does, even to me, seem like it's... a bit much.


How do you know that the member who shelled out $500,000 to join the club hasn’t spent $200 million to build a children’s hospital? Are all wealthy men and women oblivious to climate or social issues because they like to play golf an exclusive club? I know a guy with a mega yacht who has built children’s hospitals in two cities. Is he a bad person because he spent $50 million on a boat? Ridiculous….
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2023, 08:51:22 PM »
How do you know that the member who shelled out $500,000 to join the club hasn’t spent $200 million to build a children’s hospital? Are all wealthy men and women oblivious to climate or social issues because they like to play golf an exclusive club? I know a guy with a mega yacht who has built children’s hospitals in two cities. Is he a bad person because he spent $50 million on a boat? Ridiculous….

Past actions sort of aren't really relevant to Singers argument. His point is that, even if you can afford 100,000 pairs of pants, at what point does it stop being unethical to ignore a drowning child because you don't want your nice pants to be ruined.

Is buying a boat for $50M after building two hospitals unethical? Ethical dilemmas are challenging, and I really think there are no right answers.  I do think there are plenty of folks who are inclined to agitate for social change (the folks in this type of protest), could make a compelling argument that it is. That said, I really mean it when I say that I think these things are challenging.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2023, 10:22:40 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2023, 09:20:43 PM »
I think for the most part the protestors are targeting people they THINK are against them politically.  They'll protest golfers who are members of a $500K initiation club but wouldn't think of protesting against a Hollywood mogul who built a $50M home in Southampton, complete with helicopter pad, but who gives money to the "right" causes and votes for the "right "people. 
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2023, 09:40:41 PM »
There is no winning any of this. I fear we are past the tipping point already and massive carbon recapture is the only hope we have as a species. It’s likely a solvable engineering problem. We likely have a better chance of doing it than we do getting a large mass of humanity to cooperatively act in a way that would have any meaningful impact. Maybe enough governments can muster the capital required to do it at a scale that will be needed. The stupidity surrounding this issue is an embarrassment and the energy that people spend defending all sides of a losing situation will be looked back upon unkindly by history, assuming anyone is left to write it.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2023, 09:41:34 PM »
How do you know that the member who shelled out $500,000 to join the club hasn’t spent $200 million to build a children’s hospital? Are all wealthy men and women oblivious to climate or social issues because they like to play golf an exclusive club? I know a guy with a mega yacht who has built children’s hospitals in two cities. Is he a bad person because he spent $50 million on a boat? Ridiculous….

Past actions sort of aren't really relevant to Singers argument. His point is that, even if you can afford 100,000 pairs of pants, at what point does it stop being unethical to ignore a drowning child because you don't want your nice pants to be ruined.

Is buying a boat for $50M after building a two hospitals unethical? Ethical dilemmas are challenging, and I really think there are no right answers.  I do think there are plenty of folks who are inclined to agitate for social change (the folks in this type of protest), could make a compelling argument that it is. That said, I really mean it when I say that I think these things are challenging.


I can guarantee the members of these clubs have done lot more for humanity than these trespassing losers.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2023, 09:47:30 PM »
Maybe they are just scared kids. I hope the person that posted that one picture or drone video that sent theses people over the edge understands the harm they have done.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2023, 09:56:44 PM »
Let them try that at a course in Texas and see what happens!!!!! ;D ;D ;D


What do you think would happen?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2023, 04:27:52 PM »
Let them try that at a course in Texas and see what happens!!!!! ;D ;D ;D


What do you think would happen?


I think that the protesters would be met with a little more resistance. 
Texas was the state with the highest number of registered weapons in the United States in 2021, with 1,006,555 firearms.[/size] [/color]

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2023, 06:13:38 PM »
Let them try that at a course in Texas and see what happens!!!!! ;D ;D ;D


What do you think would happen?


I think that the protesters would be met with a little more resistance. 
Texas was the state with the highest number of registered weapons in the United States in 2021, with 1,006,555 firearms.


Let’s not go there please.


I was playing the other day and mentioned to my buddies (all around 60) that some day after we are gone, golf course will be all synthetic.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2023, 09:26:08 PM »
Whatever makes you  ;D ;D ;D  I guess.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2023, 10:52:34 PM »
The point of the protest is the fact that the wealthy have a much, much, much larger carbon foot print , and most appear to be doing little to reduce it.   It's dancing on the Titanic while the ship is sinking.


Golf courses and ski areas, two very expensive forms of recreation, are going to be dessemated by climate change.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2023, 12:54:43 AM »
Stupidity and incivility and not only NOT mutually exclusive they often times seem to be more commonly inclusive! 


But hey I'm sure most of those folks marching would say they are all about "inclusivity" if asked.  So they've got that going for them... Which is nice!


Heck I was young and stupid once too, but fortunately for me there were no cell phones or internet at that time!  Thank goodness!  Sometimes I cringe to think!  I "protested" some stupid crap when I was younger too, because it was popular and thought I'd look cool.  Fortunately for me no Orca suits or trespassing in my past!  And where I grew up we knew what a pitchfork was actually used for.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2023, 01:49:08 AM »
The point of the protest is the fact that the wealthy have a much, much, much larger carbon foot print , and most appear to be doing little to reduce it.   It's dancing on the Titanic while the ship is sinking.


Golf courses and ski areas, two very expensive forms of recreation, are going to be dessemated by climate change.


Everything about this is absurd.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2023, 04:24:01 AM »
Let them try that at a course in Texas and see what happens!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Yep, if you know you know.

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2023, 12:00:34 PM »
Let them try that at a course in Texas and see what happens!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Yep, if you know you know.



Besides trespassing charges, I'd like to bet that if he heard about such events (and were able), Jackie Burke would come out with a wedge and tell them to get the hell off his property before the sheriff gets there!


I can't wait for the next ice age to return, that should chill all this mental chaos and aingst ... when reality strikes it hits hard.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2023, 01:31:37 PM »
As we've gone off the rails, I want to point out that the reason why annoying peaceful protests are generally tolerated (and should be tolerated), is that the alternative is violence. In this case, we have an unfortunate track record of that in America. This is why I find the subtle endorsement of violence against protesters here rather nonsensical (note: as a native Texan, I can assure you that rural trespassing symbols are a tool to prevent accidental hunting-related injuries... it's literally called "no hunting purple").

I did a bit of research on this group. They are in fact just kids, frustrated by the American left, and the protests aren't about golf, they are about the powerful not only doing nothing, but (in their view) actively accelerating the crisis:

Quote
The people responsible for that? Billionaires who keep profiting off coal, oil, and gas while we live under yellow apocalyptic skies and constant flood warnings. Their allies in office like Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer, and Kathy Hochul don't stop these billionaires but rather help enrich them while they cause the climate crisis. If our so-called 'leaders' won't hold climate culprits accountable, we just have to do it ourselves. Wherever these greedy CEOs and politicians go - golf clubs, Michelin restaurants, private jets, Park Ave penthouses, board rooms - we will be there too.

https://actionnetwork.org/forms/wildfire-smoke-crisis-take-on-greedy-billionaires-and-politicians-killing-our-future?clear_id=true

The vast majority of us have nothing to be concerned about with regards to these types of protestors. I find their tactics to be problematic to the point of being counter-productive. On the other hand, they're obviously kids who really don't know what else to do. They're coming of age in a period of unprecedented warming, not retiring into it. They did not grow up with any ice age talk, as the scientific consensus on anthropocentric warming has existed for at least 30 years now, and they are just teenagers.

One thing a bit tangentially related though: I would like to see more golf courses install proper e-bike parking, even as a symbolic nod to environmentalism. I see more and more folks from my generation and younger (I'm the first year of the millennial generation) are using cargo e-bikes as car-replacements. In my area the amount of use is shocking (you can see parents taking their kids to school on these every day), yet not a single golf course in the area has a single bike rack, much less proper bike parking on site.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2023, 01:40:36 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Greg Hohman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2023, 01:34:45 PM »
There’s discourse here on the same level as the protesters.
newmonumentsgc.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2023, 02:00:04 PM »
I tried the one shower a day thing yesterday. It’s not hygienic and possibly unhealthy. Working on a solution.


Three showers every two days.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Protesting golf
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2023, 03:28:46 PM »
I tried the one shower a day thing yesterday. It’s not hygienic and possibly unhealthy. Working on a solution.


Three showers every two days.


Does that include two 18 hole rounds of golf in those two days?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"