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Sam Kestin

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I was doing a little research and was trying to think of some examples of distinct design features that can be attributable to having been "invented" by a specific architect.


I put "invented" in quotes as a lot of these I am sure will be hyper-debatable as to whether or not the architect in question actually was the "inventor" of the particular design feature. For example, I'd be tempted to give Donald Ross the credit for concave putting surfaces. However, I would take even money that someone on this site can name a dozen guys who designed those Pinehurst-style runoffs at the edges well before Ross or concurrent to Ross' era. Quite a few greens at the Old Course have runoffs on their sides, but does this count as the same thing as what Ross was doing?


I would have to think that the railroad ties of Pete Dye would count as I am reasonably sure I can't think of anyone else one could consider as a pioneer of that particular design touch.


Desmond Muirhead has to have some entries on this list, but I'm not sure I can point to any one specific thing that he "invented."


It feels like there's no way that this counts, but do the terraced (for lack of a better term) putting surfaces of Alistair MacKenzie qualify?


Mike Strantz has a look unto himself, but I'm not sure there is a specific feature that you can fairly call "his."


Is there a long list of the true "inventors" in the world of golf course architecture, or are they few and far between?


What are some examples of design/architecture innovations and their innovators?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2023, 06:08:32 PM »
I'm not sure who actually did it first, but I recall reading in one of Geoff Cornish's books that at one time, the dog leg was actually a radical invention.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Martin

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2023, 06:21:00 PM »
I don’t know how early and often “Chocolate Mounds” were used in Great Britain and Ireland but the first reference I’ve seen in the U.S. is by Bendelow in the Victorian era. They have come in and out of favor by a number of designers since and were recently reinstalled by Gil Hanse at The Country Club and Andrew Green at Oak Hill East.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2023, 06:22:51 PM by Tim Martin »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2023, 06:49:41 PM »
I'm not sure who actually did it first, but I recall reading in one of Geoff Cornish's books that at one time, the dog leg was actually a radical invention.
Jeff,


Your post got me to thinking: at some point back was the Road Hole considered a straight hole?
Tim Weiman

Mark_Fine

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2023, 08:28:34 PM »
Sam,
I don’t have time right now to make many comments but I will tell you Ross didn’t do those concave putting surfaces at #2 and Pete Dye got the idea for using railroad ties from his visits to study courses in the U.K. 


Will try to add more later but busy week with projects.


Mark

Phil Young

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2023, 11:24:55 PM »
A. W. Tillinghast's Reef hole.

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2023, 07:53:33 AM »
Phil,


Do you think 14 at Suneagles is a Reef Hole?  I just played there recently and felt like it may have some attributes of the Reef Hole.


Bret

Kyle Harris

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2023, 08:38:01 AM »
Don’t credit to innovation what could easily be explained with drainage.
http://kylewharris.com

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Phil Young

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2023, 09:06:56 AM »
Bret, the 14th at Suneagles very well may have been among the holes that Tilly referred to in his December, 1926 article in the American Golfer, "The Reef Hole," in which, after detailing his concept for this hole, he stated, "A similar was originated by me at Newport, and variations to suit conditions have been constructed on other courses with gratifying results."

When one looks at his original design drawing as it appeared in Suneagles book that was published when the club opened for play, there are definite similarities between the 14th hole design and the Reef hole drawing in the AG article. There are also differences. For example, his Reef hole article describes a long par-three of 225 yards, while the 14th at Suneagles, named "Clipper," was only 165. The name itself is interesting as it is a type of ship that Tilly was familiar with and so there is definitely a nautical theme to the hole in Tilly's mind. Yet the "outstanding feature of the type, a ridge, graded naturally in diagonal meandering across the fairway, dividing it into distinct areas," and the mounding on the back left side of the ridge that would enable a player to carom a shot off this and onto the green are not shown on the design drawing. Still, there is a large bunker that extends from the middle of the fairway to the entire front right of the green that one would expect to find on a Reef hole along with a challenging bunker on the left side of the green, thereby narrowing the entrance.

There is a 1940 aerial photograph that shows this hole quite well, but one can clearly see that the main features as shown on the design drawing which were originally built, are no longer there. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to see the course since Mark Fine did his work in restoring a great deal of the course, so I hope that he might have some comments on your question.

There are a number of Reef holes that we've been able to identify in the last few years that one would never think had been originally built that way. A great example of this is the 17th hole at Indian Hills CC in Kansas City. The February 14th, 1926 edition of the Kansas City Star, in an article detailing the course when it was designed and construction was just beginning, described the hole as follows: "No. 17 is named The Reef. The tee rests on the north edge of Observatory Knoll and is seventy-five feet higher than the green 240 yards away. This is a spoon shot, the player then can carry 180 yards and on a line might find the green, but for the player who is off the line there is no chance, as there are traps in front and on both sides of the green and its approaches." Standing on the tee today one sees nothing but fairway leading all the way down to an open-front green. It's a wonderful sight as it is, but I wish they would restore the Reef features to it.

Another variation of the Reef hole is the 5th hole on the original Blue course at Bethpage. It was a 300-yard, drivable par-4!

Sam Kestin

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2023, 06:03:12 PM »
Sam,
I don’t have time right now to make many comments but I will tell you Ross didn’t do those concave putting surfaces at #2 and Pete Dye got the idea for using railroad ties from his visits to study courses in the U.K. 

Will try to add more later but busy week with projects.

Mark


@Mark--appreciate the correction of my misimpression!


My question really is part of a broader attempt to sniff out the great "original" ideas in the world of golf course architecture. It seems so many of the great holes (and their underlying design principles) can be deconstructed into various elements/features that have been incorporated from designs of the past.


Perhaps architecture is not unlike cooking in this way. Great new food items are not usually achieved by "inventing" the new cumin, or growing some special strain of parsley that never existed before or bioengineering a new animal to cook. Rather, modern food genius (I suspect) is born from figuring out how to source and mix ingredients already known to all.


I hesitate to even say this among this crowd as I am sure there are 1000 new ideas I am not giving enough credit to, but it seems to me that one of the big new ideas of late in the world of architecture is the concept of "flexible" courses that can really shape-shift from day to day (or even group to group) and take on a new form. Examples would include courses like the Loop, the old Sheep Ranch (before they made it into an actual golf course), the HORSE course at Prairie Club and some of the fluid design concepts that resonate throughout Agustin Piza's work.


I have nowhere near the historical chops of about 95% of the fellow enthusiasts who occupy this site, but I'm keen to hear more from Mark and others as to what has truly been innovative in the world of course design.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2023, 06:06:58 PM »
Mostly, the real inventors were not architects, but members of clubs who were trying to solve a particular problem.


For example, the use of railway sleepers and [later] revetted bunker faces was done by trial and error by Scottish clubs trying to figure out how to prevent bunker erosion.  If you look at photos of those courses pre-1900 you will find little evidence of either.


Dr. MacKenzie's tiered greens were unusual enough that in the 1920s and 1930s, any two-tiered green in England was referred to as "a MacKenzie green," but the first two-tiered green in the world is supposedly the sixth [original fifth) at Musselburgh Old Links.  And it's a doozy!

Tim Martin

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2023, 09:07:25 PM »
The “island green” is a famous design feature and the 17th at Sawgrass may be Pete Dye’s most recognizable hole as well as one of the game’s most famous. From the limited amount of research I did it seems that George Low Sr. employed it in his original design at Baltusrol in 1903 on a short par four. Anyone that has any definitive information please chime in.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 08:46:17 AM by Tim Martin »

mike_beene

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2023, 10:34:39 PM »
Maxwell rolls? Is this really a distinctive feature? I am not sophisticated enough to identify rolls at the few Maxwell courses I have seen.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2023, 03:07:06 AM »
The use of 'Eyebrow' sleepers at Rye?
Sand erosion issue or some other deliberate intent??
atb

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2023, 08:36:28 AM »
Tillinghast described "the Great Hazard" or Hell's Half-Acre. Did he originate it?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Phil Young

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2023, 09:32:08 AM »
Charlie, this is going to be a strange answer...no and yes. Let me explain.

In the May, 1933 issue of Golf Illustrated an article written by Tilly with the title, "The Genius of Pine Valley," in speaking about George Crump, he stated: "True, he sought opinions from others. I was one of the first to walk the property with him and that George Crump finally incorporated two of my conceptions entirely (the long seventh and the thirteenth) will ever be the source of great satisfaction..." [bold mine]

Corroborating this, sixteen years earlier, in the August, 1917 issue of Golf Illustrated, in his column, "Our Green Committee Page," Tilly wrote the following: "Not long since someone at Pine Valley Golf Club asked George Crump when the course would be finished?
 
"'Never' he replied. By this he meant that after the four undeveloped holes were thrown open, work, aside from upkeep, would continue indefinitely. New features will be introduced after careful consideration and many minor changes are certain to be made. To illustrate this I have roughly sketched from memory the long hole from at Pine Valley, the seventh.

"As it was originally planned is shown by Fig. 1. It is being played so at present and a mighty fine hole it is, too. None but the long hitter even hope to get within striking distance of the green after his second shot, and both the drive and the second shot must be hit. An enormous area of sand extends quite across the course, beginning, I should say, 325 yards from the teeing ground. The hazard must be close to 100 yards across. If it is not carried, the green is beyond range. But good as it is, some variations from the present lines will make it a far greater problem, and the change will be made.

"Along the right of the fairway extends a wood, and cuts will be made for this new teeing-ground and for the second shot. After the change the tee-shot must be played more to the left than at present, the second shot will be forced to the right, and naturally the green will open up to an approach from that side. A comparison of the two sketches [included in the article] reveals a marked improvement with not an alarming amount of work in sight. Already the new green has been constructed."

So why the answer "no and yes?" Because the original hole as designed had the Hell's half-acre bunker in it. Did Tilly have input on the original design of that hole? No one can say for certain one way or the other. He did redesign the hole, Hell's half-acre included, making it an early example of his concept of a "double- dog-leg" par-five, and as he noted in the 1917 article, the hole was being rebuilt at that time per his recommendations. This was confirmed in his 1933 article.
   
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 09:43:07 AM by Phil Young »

Niall C

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2023, 11:48:16 AM »
I'm not sure who actually did it first, but I recall reading in one of Geoff Cornish's books that at one time, the dog leg was actually a radical invention.
Jeff,


Your post got me to thinking: at some point back was the Road Hole considered a straight hole?


James Braid is sometimes wrongly credited of inventing the dog-leg. He may have been noted for dog-legs but he certainly didn't come up with the idea. If you read James Balfours description of TOC in the 1840's he describes the need to zig-zag to get to the green. Of course in those days the route to the green was not defined as such and players could have taken the direct route if they were brave/foolish enough.


Niall

Mike Hendren

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2023, 12:47:01 PM »
Pretty sure the “water trap” was invented in the 70’s by the super at Rolling Hills CC in Ripley, TN.  Two amoeba shaped holes two feet deep and water filled were built fronting the 2nd green - a 185 yards par 3.  Filled in, however within two years.  Nicknamed Tadpole City.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom_Doak

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2023, 04:47:27 PM »
Pretty sure the “water trap” was invented in the 70’s by the super at Rolling Hills CC in Ripley, TN.  Two amoeba shaped holes two feet deep and water filled were built fronting the 2nd green - a 185 yards par 3.  Filled in, however within two years.  Nicknamed Tadpole City.


I believe this has been tried and found unsatisfactory a few times in history, but it's hard to have a precise history of something that no one wants to take credit for!

Thomas Dai

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Re: Distinct Design Features and the Architects Who "Invented" Them
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2023, 03:47:08 AM »
Slightly off-thread perhaps but some of the slightly 'naughty' or comic features by Stanley Thompson come to mind. Mound and bunker shapes and positioning etc.
:)
atb

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