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John Mayhugh

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Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« on: July 24, 2023, 01:00:52 PM »
As noted on their website, Mackenzie & Ebert advise many of the most highly ranked existing courses in the world. This includes eight of the ten (British) Open venues.

There are so many instances of changes that they have "advised" that seem ill-advised to me. Much of their work is attractive, but it always seems to look better in isolation. When you compare the new work to the style of the rest of the course, it sometimes doesn't seem to fit. Routing-wise, they also seem to be more concerned with coming up with the best holes, while the sum of the parts may be lacking.

I don't understand what qualifies M&E to change a Colt routing, for example. There's nothing in their portfolio of courses (either on their own or with Steel) that stands out to me as a must see - much less evidence that they could be expected to improve on Colt's work. Aesthetic changes that can be reversed when fashions change (or better judgement prevails) don't bother me, but bulldozing history does.

What M&E courses are worth studying? They do a nice job of using places they advise to burnish their image, but what if they didn't have the halo effect of courses like Portrush and their original work needed to stand on its own? Which courses should we use to assess their capability?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2023, 01:29:02 PM »
Tom and Martin have made their name working on existing courses. I was a member at Tom's Heythrop Park in Oxfordshire for a couple of years, and, given the constraints of the site (one of the most important historic parks in England; permission to build golf was only granted because it was so degraded, and the golf enabled the restoration of the park) I thought he did a very good job. But the constraints were such that the golf was inevitably compromised: it was a very long walk, and the eighteenth hole, which played straight up the Grand Avenue in front of the house was not permitted any artificial features at all, and thus, although a fantastic spot to play golf, was in pure golfing terms rather dull.

I haven't seen Skibo Castle but am told by some good judges that it is really rather splendid, especially since Tom went back and redid it.

IMO Martin's best work is the Ailsa course at Turnberry. Turnberry always attracted a lot of votes in course rankings because it is so picturesque, but given that the body of the course was heavily reconstructed post WW2, presumably on the cheap, the details of the course were not the best imo. It is much better post the Ebert work. I think the famous run down the coast is significantly improved: the ninth works far better as a long par three than it did as a four, pushing the green at the tenth back to the water has created an excellent par five, and the new eleventh (which was originally a collaborative idea by Martin and George Brown, the longtime and late Turnberry courses manager; I have gone on record several times as saying the hole should, as it is completely new, be renamed after George) is outstanding. But there are a lot of less obvious improvements too: the par three fifteenth is a hole I have always liked, but the green used to have a bowled quality that meant the pin could not be located close to the big drop on the right side: that has been fixed.

There is no doubt that Tom and Martin are both very talented architects. Are they so much more talented than their British peers that their current pre-eminence is justified? People will have their own opinion. My only comment is that their dominance of the UK market in recent years has left a lot of courses, especially our links, with similar features. I remember the first time I saw Ebert sand scrapes (I think at Prince's, but I can't remember for sure): I really liked them. But when so many of our classic links have the same features, it starts to get a bit old.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2023, 08:20:38 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2023, 01:37:59 PM »
I agree that Skibo is very good, but at least some of the credit must go to Steel, no? Citing Turnberry is also much the same scenario. What original M&S course has high merit?

What is odd to me is that M&E have shown themselves to be talented and creative archies. Why aren’t they able to pull it all together in a bold and satisfying manner? It seems I always have reservations about their work...hit and miss.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 02:31:19 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2023, 01:41:19 PM »
I agree that Skibo is very good, but at least some of the credit must go to Steel, no? Citing Turnberry is also much the same scenario. What original M&S course has high merit?

What is odd to me is that M&E have shown themselves to be talented and creative archies. Why aren’t they able to pull it all together in a bold and satisfying manner? It seems I always have reservations about their work...hit and miss.

Ciao

Ciao

There are very few British architects currently active who have found clients suitable to build new courses of any significant virtue, at least in this country. Rob Hiseman's JCB is an exception, but it is one of not very many. Almost all the big money, good site projects in the UK in the last twenty odd years have gone to Americans.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 01:45:48 PM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2023, 03:51:29 PM »
I share the reservations about their work and can’t say I’m thrilled that they’ve been selected to produce a new plan for the course I grew up playing at Sherwood Forest. I’m waiting to see what they come up with (and in particular where they’ll be proposing to put in some sand scrapes  ::) ) but I’m certainly not as excited as I would be if some other architects had been chosen.


Assuming it eventually happens, the new course at Fairmont St Andrews will be an opportunity to see what they can do with what will effectively be a blank canvas.  It sounds like money won’t be an issue and it’s a pretty dramatic site (using the best of the land on which the two existing courses are built).

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2023, 04:33:12 PM »
Tom MacKenzie has designed 2 new courses that I know of; the NLE Brunston Castle down in Ayrshire which was I think his first course and was done under the Donald Steel banner. Only played it once and from what I remember it was a fairly basic inland course built on a modest budget or so I presume.


The other course is Craigielaw which is over the wall from Kilspindie in East Lothian. It doesn't get much mention on here but well worth a play IMO. I think it is a much more accomplished course than Brunston Castle ever was and one that I've played a few times and enjoy. I'm not sure how much earth was moved tee to green but it appears not much. The greens however have loads of movement and mainly of the pop-up variety. There are 5 par 3's so it's not the regulation kind of layout which has that going for it.


I'm not aware of playing any Martin Ebert originals.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2023, 04:53:24 PM »
I share the reservations about their work and can’t say I’m thrilled that they’ve been selected to produce a new plan for the course I grew up playing at Sherwood Forest. I’m waiting to see what they come up with (and in particular where they’ll be proposing to put in some sand scrapes  ::) ) but I’m certainly not as excited as I would be if some other architects had been chosen.


Assuming it eventually happens, the new course at Fairmont St Andrews will be an opportunity to see what they can do with what will effectively be a blank canvas.  It sounds like money won’t be an issue and it’s a pretty dramatic site (using the best of the land on which the two existing courses are built).

I have high expectations for Fairmont.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2023, 05:15:40 PM »
I think Tom Mackenzie did Stapleford Park nr Melton Mowbray under Donald Steel - I am not 100 percent certain. Parts of the land like Heythrop was protected there was a section 2 to 3 and 16 to 17 that didn't have any sand bunkers on or near Capability Brown landscape.


The greens were large and undulating with some interesting holes and some strange ones especially the 17th which was originally played the other way round as a par 3 on a 3 hole loop course before they increased it to 18 holes they didnt amend the front of the green so that it was like playing towards back of the green at the front, the course had revetted bunkers even deep ones on the fairway which were difficult to get out. Not sure if it was the Architect or at the request of Peter De Savary the then owner.


Skibo, Stapleford and Bovey Castle were then owned by De Savary.


Sadly Stapleford is no longer as there was dispute with landowner of part of the course according to local sources. The number of people playing golf in Rutland and Melton has gone up in the last 5 years so hopefully Stapleford could rise from the ashes in possibly a different form. 




Other new courses by UK Architects just built or coming up in the UK alongside




Simon Gidman is doing a new 18 hole course for Basingstoke Golf Club


Ross McMurray (Robin's work colleague) did the new course at Royal Norwich


James Edwards is doing a new course at Cumberwell Park and redoing Boundary Lakes in Southampton.


Stuart Rennie did the Kings Course in the Highlands which I would like to see.

Tim Lobb is doing a number of works like Woking, Isle of Purbeck and Perranporth. He has completed a new course in Giza by the Pyramids.


I have heard a few more however will wait for the press release or announcements.


Have played golf with Tom M and met him a few times at EIGCA events he is a nice guy and is enthusiastic about Golf Course Design. I think Engineering is more his background where others in EIGCA like myself have come from a design background.


It was interesting to hear Martin Slumbers say the 17th at Hoylake is on him/R&A if it fails. Some times us architects have to interpret what the client wants.


I think M+E work at Royal Porthcawl has really elevated the course as you will see this week. Its the second best conditioned links course i have played on just behind RCD

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2023, 05:16:41 PM »
.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2023, 03:16:39 AM by Ben Stephens »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2023, 05:53:42 PM »
I think M+E work at Royal Porthcawl has really elevated the course as you will see this week. Its the second best conditioned links course i have played on just behind RCD
Looking forward to seeing RPGC this coming week.
Not convinced that architects work contributes towards conditioning though. Be nice if it did but I reckon there’s more to it than that. Indeed sometimes what an architect wants and convinces the client to accept may not be maintainable.
But then again RPGC like many other elite U.K. links has a large maintenance crew/budget plus with the Seniors Open about to be played there’ll no doubt be other help both financially and otherwise that’ll be contributing and contributing more than M+E’s design work input I suspect. Indeed I’ve heard that the opened-up sandscrapes have actually increased maintenance time and effort.
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2023, 06:25:27 PM »

Assuming it eventually happens, the new course at Fairmont St Andrews will be an opportunity to see what they can do with what will effectively be a blank canvas.  It sounds like money won’t be an issue and it’s a pretty dramatic site (using the best of the land on which the two existing courses are built).

I have high expectations for Fairmont.

Ciao


I had a client ask me recently if I was interested in rebuilding that course.  I'm not.  However, I don't think it's a done deal that it's happening, if someone else is asking me about it.


By far my favorite new course designed by Mackenzie and Ebert [when they still worked for Donald Steel] is the Victoria course in Sri Lanka.  I don't think Donald Steel made many trips there himself.  It's a beautiful, fairly severe site and a really good routing over it, and some very good shaping work, too.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2023, 03:19:31 AM »
Tom M is working on NSW which is their biggest project in Australia to date. M+E have a string business model and their demeanour appeals to lots of golf clubs and associations.


Wasn't it mentioned on another thread that they are to rework the Valley course at Royal Portrush?

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2023, 03:34:44 AM »
I think M+E work at Royal Porthcawl has really elevated the course as you will see this week. Its the second best conditioned links course i have played on just behind RCD
Looking forward to seeing RPGC this coming week.
Not convinced that architects work contributes towards conditioning though. Be nice if it did but I reckon there’s more to it than that. Indeed sometimes what an architect wants and convinces the client to accept may not be maintainable.
But then again RPGC like many other elite U.K. links has a large maintenance crew/budget plus with the Seniors Open about to be played there’ll no doubt be other help both financially and otherwise that’ll be contributing and contributing more than M+E’s design work input I suspect. Indeed I’ve heard that the opened-up sandscrapes have actually increased maintenance time and effort.
Atb


Dai,


Its more to do to with the elements that most don't really notice - the transition between greens to the next tee is one of the best I have seen on a links course and the surrounds have vastly improved.


There are no artificial or stone paths - its all grass paths which are quite wide with well positioned small irrigation pop ups at 45 degrees in 50mm pipes which i have not seen on a course before. The wider the grass path the less wear and tear. Those grass paths were also visible at Hoylake last week. 


Some of the bunkers have changed to a more rugged look isn't that more in line with Simpson's work?


From the aerial it looks like 17th has another green further on - not sure if that the case


Cheers
Ben

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2023, 04:48:44 AM »
We should also note that Tom and Martin are both extremely nice guys, which can't do their business any harm. Tom is, a bit like Bill Coore, one of those people about whom no-one who has met him has a bad word to say. I have a vivid memory of a post-golf, beer-fuelled putting contest during an EIGCA meeting at Portmarnock Links in Ireland some years ago -- we started placing the beers on the putting green to make the holes a little more challenging! Martin I have known since we were in the group that recreated the Askernish course in 2006; my role was very minor, but it remains one of my most cherished memories.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2023, 05:39:19 AM »
We should also note that Tom and Martin are both extremely nice guys, which can't do their business any harm. Tom is, a bit like Bill Coore, one of those people about whom no-one who has met him has a bad word to say. I have a vivid memory of a post-golf, beer-fuelled putting contest during an EIGCA meeting at Portmarnock Links in Ireland some years ago -- we started placing the beers on the putting green to make the holes a little more challenging! Martin I have known since we were in the group that recreated the Askernish course in 2006; my role was very minor, but it remains one of my most cherished memories.


I remember meeting Tom and his wife on a very early morning flight to Iceland for the 2022 EIGCA annual meeting - the day before Tom had just done 100 holes at West Sussex to raise money for cancer and he was playing golf with me at Brautarholt the next day until midnight which was quite hilly and had long walks. Kudos to Tom for doing this and his feet definitely felt it. M+E have also have Mike Howard in the ranks a very good plus handicap golfer and Landscape Architect by trade.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2023, 05:44:55 AM »
Going back to John's initial thread.




- Every designer has their strength and weakness.


- There are different tastes/opinions on how a golf course should look like.


- We don't always know how much freedom the designer has or are they restricted by the client's brief and do the best job they can.


- How long do they work for a client - before M+E Hawtree was the R+A go to Architect - it will be interesting to see who is the next one.


- Some have better design flair than others some engineer the course better than others.


- Golf courses evolve for the better or worse. Some are traditionalists who like to revert back or progressives who take the course forward into the modern era.


- My design tutor said - 'There is no such thing as a perfect design. Always strive to do the best you can'


VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2023, 06:25:14 AM »
Can’t talk about any M&E brand new courses because I’ve yet to see any. However, regardless of the fact that Tom and Martin are no doubt excellent technical GCA’s, I continue to have problems with their links work, namely:


1. They have taken on too many clients, hence a lack of hands-on approach in both solution and detailing (something that is really needed on links courses)


2. More change than is strictly necessary is being proposed at many courses.


3. The same type of aesthetic (and strategic) solution is being proposed at almost all courses. Hence not very site specific.


I have said that since the beginning and it is only ramping up. Much of the work when taken in isolation is improvement, some of it was necessary.

Greg Hohman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2023, 07:53:01 AM »
Tom and Martin have made their name working on existing courses. I was a member at Tom's Heythrop Park in Oxfordshire for a couple of years, and, given the constraints of the site (one of the most important historic parks in England; permission to build golf was only granted because it was so degrade, and the golf enabled the restoration of the park) I thought he did a very good job. But the constraints were such that the golf was inevitably compromised: it was a very long walk, and the eighteenth hole, which played straight up the Grand Avenue in front of the house was not permitted any artificial features at all, and thus, although a fantastic spot to play golf, was in pure golfing terms rather dull.


Adam, I have a memory of reading that the constraint on 18 extended to the entire course; it had to blend into the landscape effectively enough to prevent hotel guests in their rooms from seeing any artificial features! True?
newmonumentsgc.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2023, 08:11:03 AM »
Tom and Martin have made their name working on existing courses. I was a member at Tom's Heythrop Park in Oxfordshire for a couple of years, and, given the constraints of the site (one of the most important historic parks in England; permission to build golf was only granted because it was so degrade, and the golf enabled the restoration of the park) I thought he did a very good job. But the constraints were such that the golf was inevitably compromised: it was a very long walk, and the eighteenth hole, which played straight up the Grand Avenue in front of the house was not permitted any artificial features at all, and thus, although a fantastic spot to play golf, was in pure golfing terms rather dull.


Adam, I have a memory of reading that the constraint on 18 extended to the entire course; it had to blend into the landscape effectively enough to prevent hotel guests in their rooms from seeing any artificial features! True?

I thought this was the case with Heythrop. There was also another hole whose fairway was on view from the hotel. I thought the green had to be tucked around trees to partially preserve the view. It seems like this was a tough job, but some very good holes were built. I wouldn't play Heythrop again without a cart!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2023, 08:17:04 AM »
Ally


Let me play Devil's Advocate (as usual);


In terms of your comments on detailing, would much of that not depend on the client and what they wanted and were willing to pay for ? To gauge their working methods on the finished result seems to me a bit harsh unless of course you know what they proposed to their clients, what their clients agreed to, and how much time M&E actually spent on site.


Who's to judge what is too much change ? Indeed who's judge if the work hasn't been extensive enough ? I can well imagine a scenario where the client hasn't bought into all the proposals such that what was done has turned out to be a half-arsed job that would have been better left alone. No doubt the architect would lament what could have been and who's to say they were wrong (MacKenzie and his proposals for Prestwick come to mind).


Same type of aesthetic I presume refers to the sandy waste areas that have become so prevalent. I think you can fairly say that M&E have led the charge in terms of creating sandy waste areas on UK links courses (not sure who else is doing them ?) however are they not being advocated by STRI in order to create better bio-diversity ? If that's the case then again it's a bit harsh putting all the blame on M&E. Besides a few years of benign neglect from the greenkeeper should resolve the situation one way or another.


Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2023, 08:18:06 AM »
Sean's comment about the eleventh hole at Heythrop is certainly true: the green is tucked in trees, behind a pond, and to the left of the hole corridor. I'm not quite sure about yours, Greg. It's nothing to do with the hotel if it is true: it is a question of the view from the historic house. Certainly if you look at the course map (https://www.warnerleisurehotels.co.uk/Images/HP-Golf-Course_Map_tcm13-54158.pdf), there isn't much golf in the immediate environs of the big house.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2023, 08:36:54 AM »
Niall,


To be honest I don’t want to be drawn in to a back and forward on my three points. There are so many nuances that it could turn in to a never ending discussion.


I have studied dune systems and worked on and played on links courses more than most. I have talked to many clubs about their actual needs (and in some cases perceived needs). I’m in a pretty good position to evaluate why I say what I say…. But, in short:


1. Detailing is absolutely nothing to do with what a client buys. They never buy detailing and money is not really a factor.


2. Clubs have funny ideas that sometimes have to be tempered and / or they need to be talked out of them. In the 30 or so clients that are being worked with, have M&E proposals ever reduced the amount of work being discussed? If the answer is no to the vast majority, then too much change is being proposed. Generally the proposals increase the scope of work, sometimes with good reason, sometimes unnecessarily.


3. If you think sand scrapes are being used in the fashion that they are because of a primary bio-diversity driver, I’d politely disagree with you.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2023, 12:02:05 PM »
Agree with Ally - the best courses are when the Architect has been on the site a lot of times. Quality tends to be better than Quantity.


With M+E - I wonder how much of their work is like Design and Build procurement which hands more of the work over to the contractor or even in-house rather than the Architect.


I can see Tom D and his crew are picking the de la creme of projects which means he/they can devote more time to it rather than rely on others who are not familiar with their design approach/model.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2023, 12:23:27 PM »

With M+E - I wonder how much of their work is like Design and Build procurement which hands more of the work over to the contractor or even in-house rather than the Architect.


I can see Tom D and his crew are picking the de la creme of projects which means he/they can devote more time to it rather than rely on others who are not familiar with their design approach/model.
You would think that building a new hole and changing the routing at Royal Liverpool prior to an Open Championship would warrant a hands-on approach. It is certainly a de la creme project.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2023, 01:10:43 PM »

With M+E - I wonder how much of their work is like Design and Build procurement which hands more of the work over to the contractor or even in-house rather than the Architect.


I can see Tom D and his crew are picking the de la creme of projects which means he/they can devote more time to it rather than rely on others who are not familiar with their design approach/model.
You would think that building a new hole and changing the routing at Royal Liverpool prior to an Open Championship would warrant a hands-on approach. It is certainly a de la creme project.


Martin Ebert does most of the work for the R&A from what I have heard and I'm sure he would have been on site quite a lot based on the fees they would be paid. Other clubs can't afford the level of fees that top clubs do.

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