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Steve_ Shaffer

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17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« on: July 23, 2023, 10:47:14 PM »

Prior to Brian Harman lifting the Claret Jug on Sunday, a lot has been made of the par 3 17th at Royal Liverpool, with professionals and caddies divided about the layout of the short hole.
Some liked it, some didn't, and now, following the conclusion of The 151st Open Championship, it has been reported by The Telegraph that the hole is set to be given a complete makeover, with members of the club also disliking the way that the hole plays.
According to The Telegraph, an insider has said: “In truth, the majority of members have not liked this hole since it was opened a few years back. It has caused all manners of problems in the club’s competitions.

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Report: Royal Liverpool's Controversial 17th Hole To Be Redesigned (msn.com)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 11:12:31 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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Ronald Montesano

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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2023, 11:17:10 PM »
I didn't say a thing about 17.  However, According to The Telegraph, an insider has said: “In truth, the majority of members have not liked this hole since it was opened a few years back. It has caused all manners of problems in the club’s competitions."

Royal Liverpool to radically overhaul controversial 17th hole after The Open due to complaints (telegraph.co.uk)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 11:18:47 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
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Matt Schoolfield

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2023, 11:46:53 PM »
The only thing I don’t like about it is the overt bunkering. Looking at it from google earth this weekend, it’s all gorse and heather with the occasional stone, and then just in the corner of the course… massive faux-natural bunkers.


I like the horizon green design, it does look unfortunately out of place to me.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2023, 11:53:25 PM »
“In truth, the majority of members have not liked this hole since it was opened a few years back,” an insider said. “It has caused all manners of problems in the club’s competitions. There was one women’s tournament held when there was a host of ‘no returns’ at the 17th. It was taking 20 to 30 minutes for each group to complete and it caused a huge tail back. They are not getting rid of it but they will be blowing it up and making it much fairer and appealing to play.”

What happened when a 20-handicap golfer took on Hoylake's 'impossible' 17th (telegraph.co.uk)








« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 01:25:10 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Rose

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2023, 12:13:35 AM »
Was anything wrong with what was there before?
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Alex Miller

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2023, 12:18:33 AM »
Kudos to the club for acting on what was clearly judged as a mistake by many people, members, players, etc... I can't say I disagree. I think the rest of the course provided a great test and am already excited for Royal Liverpool to host again, but as I experienced playing it in April 17 just doesn't fit.


The new routing did I think help the course respond to the modern game by having 15 and 18 extend to 600+ yards, so a smart solution there given the role as an Open venue.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2023, 01:43:24 AM »
they should bring in an Open architect. >:(

Sean_A

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2023, 02:50:29 AM »
The transition for either routing is terrible. Why do you think Colt had that hole reversed? Also, the green sits in a pretty spot, but there is no view of the estuary from the tee. To me the hole makes little sense.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Thomas Dai

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2023, 03:30:32 AM »
Begs a further question .... if it's to be redesigned who will be entrusted with the work?
atb

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2023, 04:06:40 AM »
The transition for either routing is terrible. Why do you think Colt had that hole reversed? Also, the green sits in a pretty spot, but there is no view of the estuary from the tee. To me the hole makes little sense.

Ciao
I think it could be made better if it was lowered about 3 metres. Seems crazy (Painswick) to have a semi blind par 3, sometimes you have to have these holes in routings but this one did not need to be. I can see the sense in the newer routing allowing extensions to the two par 5 holes.
I have watched every Open from start to finish since 1973 and this for me was the worst/dullest. Combination of factors; can't say I really like Sky TV coverage ( I have no interest in the range) or drifting off to chat about twaddle, if LIV players are playing then cover them, SKY should not be playing Pope; TV cameras maybe in the wrong place? I find Hoylake a boring course (though I have not played it), it does not have the same feel/buzz as other venues though maybe these things are there and hard to see from TV, there was just not enough flyovers, green complexes were a plus though, I loved the roll offs, fairways seemed very flat, obviously very green and undistinct (not Hoylakes fault); runaway winner (played brilliant specially with the flatstick) boring personality could have/was a machine; course set up was pants.... whoever was in change might need to stand down, why make 18 ungettable last day and yeah the 17th seems very out of place.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Sean_A

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2023, 04:19:08 AM »
The transition for either routing is terrible. Why do you think Colt had that hole reversed? Also, the green sits in a pretty spot, but there is no view of the estuary from the tee. To me the hole makes little sense.

Ciao
I think it could be made better if it was lowered about 3 metres. Seems crazy (Painswick) to have a semi blind par 3, sometimes you have to have these holes in routings but this one did not need to be. I can see the sense in the newer routing allowing extensions to the two par 5 holes.
I have watched every Open from start to finish since 1973 and this for me was the worst/dullest. Combination of factors; can't say I really like Sky TV coverage ( I have no interest in the range) or drifting off to chat about twaddle, if LIV players are playing then cover them, SKY should not be playing Pope; TV cameras maybe in the wrong place? I find Hoylake a boring course (though I have not played it), it does not have the same feel/buzz as other venues though maybe these things are there and hard to see from TV, there was just not enough flyovers, green complexes were a plus though, I loved the roll offs, fairways seemed very flat, obviously very green and undistinct (not Hoylakes fault); runaway winner (played brilliant specially with the flatstick) boring personality could have/was a machine; course set up was pants.... whoever was in change might need to stand down, why make 18 ungettable last day and yeah the 17th seems very out of place.

The extensions to the par 5s are Open driven. Are they worth the membership having a terrible transition from the new par 3?Perhaps member play was not given full thought for these latest round of changes.

Regardless of the new hole, I like Hoylake and would choose to play there over some other Open venues.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2023, 04:25:57 AM »
The transition for either routing is terrible. Why do you think Colt had that hole reversed? Also, the green sits in a pretty spot, but there is no view of the estuary from the tee. To me the hole makes little sense.

Ciao
I think it could be made better if it was lowered about 3 metres. Seems crazy (Painswick) to have a semi blind par 3, sometimes you have to have these holes in routings but this one did not need to be. I can see the sense in the newer routing allowing extensions to the two par 5 holes.
I have watched every Open from start to finish since 1973 and this for me was the worst/dullest. Combination of factors; can't say I really like Sky TV coverage ( I have no interest in the range) or drifting off to chat about twaddle, if LIV players are playing then cover them, SKY should not be playing Pope; TV cameras maybe in the wrong place? I find Hoylake a boring course (though I have not played it), it does not have the same feel/buzz as other venues though maybe these things are there and hard to see from TV, there was just not enough flyovers, green complexes were a plus though, I loved the roll offs, fairways seemed very flat, obviously very green and undistinct (not Hoylakes fault); runaway winner (played brilliant specially with the flatstick) boring personality could have/was a machine; course set up was pants.... whoever was in change might need to stand down, why make 18 ungettable last day and yeah the 17th seems very out of place.

The extensions to the par 5s are Open driven. Are they worth the membership having a terrible transition from the new par 3?Perhaps member play was not given full thought for these latest round of changes.

Regardless of the new hole, I like Hoylake and would choose to play there over some other Open venues.

Ciao
I don't think it created a terrible transition, I actually think it is better and better for members. Agree that the length bit is OPEN driven but the members don't play off them. The OPEN is a big part of how these courses function anyway.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Sean_A

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2023, 05:20:53 AM »
The transition for either routing is terrible. Why do you think Colt had that hole reversed? Also, the green sits in a pretty spot, but there is no view of the estuary from the tee. To me the hole makes little sense.

Ciao
I think it could be made better if it was lowered about 3 metres. Seems crazy (Painswick) to have a semi blind par 3, sometimes you have to have these holes in routings but this one did not need to be. I can see the sense in the newer routing allowing extensions to the two par 5 holes.
I have watched every Open from start to finish since 1973 and this for me was the worst/dullest. Combination of factors; can't say I really like Sky TV coverage ( I have no interest in the range) or drifting off to chat about twaddle, if LIV players are playing then cover them, SKY should not be playing Pope; TV cameras maybe in the wrong place? I find Hoylake a boring course (though I have not played it), it does not have the same feel/buzz as other venues though maybe these things are there and hard to see from TV, there was just not enough flyovers, green complexes were a plus though, I loved the roll offs, fairways seemed very flat, obviously very green and undistinct (not Hoylakes fault); runaway winner (played brilliant specially with the flatstick) boring personality could have/was a machine; course set up was pants.... whoever was in change might need to stand down, why make 18 ungettable last day and yeah the 17th seems very out of place.

The extensions to the par 5s are Open driven. Are they worth the membership having a terrible transition from the new par 3?Perhaps member play was not given full thought for these latest round of changes.

Regardless of the new hole, I like Hoylake and would choose to play there over some other Open venues.

Ciao
I don't think it created a terrible transition, I actually think it is better and better for members. Agree that the length bit is OPEN driven but the members don't play off them. The OPEN is a big part of how these courses function anyway.

Not a terrible transition? The 16th tee is near the 18th tee for the Open routing. It's even further forward for the members. It's a typical modern concept which is excused. I wonder if members skip the 17th.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2023, 05:34:41 AM »
It will get quite difficult to explain all the numbering, but the walk from 14 to 15 as was, was better, but you then had a long walk to the next tee which was actually near the 14th green so very much the same. I think the routing has been improved. I agree the current 17th involves walking back on yourself but almost all older courses have adopted this in search of yards.


I think 17 could be a good hole if it took the form of a hole that; was short, well bunkered, had a green clearly visible from the tee. I think it should be designed to mirror the look of the other holes, perhaps taking on similar traits of the postage stamp. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Robin_Hiseman

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2023, 05:37:37 AM »
I have it on good authority that the Hoylake ladies skip 17 in medal play. They all put a 6 on the card and go from 16 green to 18 tee.
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Niall C

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2023, 05:45:06 AM »
A few random thoughts;


Re the 17th - as a short uphill semi-blind par 3 it isn't as good as the 5th at Covesea.  ;)  Seriously though, I thought it worked fairly well for the Open although they never played it in a stiff breeze. The obvious comparison to make with it is with the Postage Stamp which is different in so much as the tee shot plays down hill to the green, and I understand that what is contemplated at Hoylake is raising the tee so that at least the shot isn't uphill to a raised green.


From what I also gather the other main change to the hole will be that they will create a bit more of a bail out short and right which the Postage Stamp doesn't have. I quite like that idea from the point of view that at Troon it is a simple do or die while at Hoylake the temptation will be there to bail and therefore a lot more players will be hugging the right side of the green. The other change I'd make is chopping back some of the vegetation over the back.


Final thought on 17, I think it was MacKenzie who wrote about members complaining bitterly about changes and then later coming to love what was done. With that in mind I don't think the hole needs drastic changes, after all, the Troon members have endured the difficulty of the Postage Stamp for over a hundred years and have come to embrace the challenge. I suspect the Hoylake members will come to embrace their hole in the same way.


Set-up - let me caveat my thoughts here by saying never been to Hoylake and only seen it on TV. Firstly the initial set up with the bunkers wasn't clever and could readily have been avoided. Fair play to the R&A in either recognising the error or giving in to players whinging, depending on what way you look at it. The main thing though that seemed strange was some of the contour style mowing on the fairways. There was some obvious bits where it made sense but there were also quite a few other bits where it looked a bit contrived to me. As I say, haven't been there.


Crowds - there is a tendency in this country to pat ourselves on the back about how knowledgeable our crowds are and how well behaved they are. Well after this year I don't think we can say that with any great conviction. It has been getting worse the last few years but this year the boorish shouting out, heckling (yes heckling !) and even booing of the leader as he walked on to the first tee were deplorable. We may still be better than other parts of the world but that shouldn't be the yard stick. It's time the organisers gave some serious thought on how to address this.


Sky TV - I couldn't agree more with Adrian's comments. Not interested in all the range stuff or celeb interviews, and the amount of chat/commentary, even while players are playing their shots is just a total distraction. Far too frenetic.


The Champion Golfer - I can't recall such a dominant display in the Open as Harmans this year. Unfortunately in these modern times we tend to get excited about celebrities and concentrate on those at the top of the rankings without giving those below full credit for such a stellar performance. I hope in future years this Open will be remembered for Harmans performance rather than being another year that Rory didn't win.


Niall

Thomas Dai

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2023, 06:17:27 AM »
Crowds - there is a tendency in this country to pat ourselves on the back about how knowledgeable our crowds are and how well behaved they are. Well after this year I don't think we can say that with any great conviction. It has been getting worse the last few years but this year the boorish shouting out, heckling (yes heckling !) and even booing of the leader as he walked on to the first tee were deplorable. We may still be better than other parts of the world but that shouldn't be the yard stick. It's time the organisers gave some serious thought on how to address this.

Sky TV - I couldn't agree more with Adrian's comments. Not interested in all the range stuff or celeb interviews, and the amount of chat/commentary, even while players are playing their shots is just a total distraction. Far too frenetic.

Well said Niall.

Far too much razzamatazz, corporate, celeb, ‘influencer’ and hyped-up media, talking heads stuff.

Championship golf meets vaudeville.
And based on the TV coverage the behaviour from some of the spectators shouldn’t be tolerated.

Andrew Thomson, son of 5-times, has written this superb piece from Hoylake which is well worth reading - see - https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/open-championship-2023-diary-from-hoylake-on-day-four/ - and which contains these fine and very apt words -





Atb
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 06:27:26 AM by Thomas Dai »

Sean_A

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2023, 06:42:53 AM »
It will get quite difficult to explain all the numbering, but the walk from 14 to 15 as was, was better, but you then had a long walk to the next tee which was actually near the 14th green so very much the same. I think the routing has been improved. I agree the current 17th involves walking back on yourself but almost all older courses have adopted this in search of yards.


I think 17 could be a good hole if it took the form of a hole that; was short, well bunkered, had a green clearly visible from the tee. I think it should be designed to mirror the look of the other holes, perhaps taking on similar traits of the postage stamp. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

You're proving my point...too much emphasis on the Open. If a club serves two masters and one suffers for it. There no awkward transitions for the member routing. Any awkwardness was created because of Open tees. Hoylake was one of the best walks in golf.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2023, 07:04:18 AM »
It will get quite difficult to explain all the numbering, but the walk from 14 to 15 as was, was better, but you then had a long walk to the next tee which was actually near the 14th green so very much the same. I think the routing has been improved. I agree the current 17th involves walking back on yourself but almost all older courses have adopted this in search of yards.


I think 17 could be a good hole if it took the form of a hole that; was short, well bunkered, had a green clearly visible from the tee. I think it should be designed to mirror the look of the other holes, perhaps taking on similar traits of the postage stamp. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

You're proving my point...too much emphasis on the Open. If a club serves two masters and one suffers for it. There no awkward transitions for the member routing. Any awkwardness was created because of Open tees. Hoylake was one of the best walks in golf.

Ciao
It's only proving your point if the majority of the membership are actually unhappy, if its just your opinion then it may be a minorty one. I do agree that staging any form of championship golf comes with a 'price' but they have to equally decide if the bargain is worth it and in most cases in my opinion the member likes, wants, appreciates staging big events.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2023, 07:32:40 AM »


Well said Niall.

Far too much razzamatazz, corporate, celeb, ‘influencer’ and hyped-up media, talking heads stuff.

Championship golf meets vaudeville.
And based on the TV coverage the behaviour from some of the spectators shouldn’t be tolerated.

Andrew Thomson, son of 5-times, has written this superb piece from Hoylake which is well worth reading - see - https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/open-championship-2023-diary-from-hoylake-on-day-four/ - and which contains these fine and very apt words -





Atb


"It’d be a sad day if the average golfer in Britain couldn’t afford or couldn’t get a ticket to watch."

Let me suggest that day has been and gone for many.

Niall

Brett Meyer

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2023, 08:41:03 AM »
The 17th hole looked like yet another example of an over-cooked Pinehurst green, which has been one of my biggest complaints about new courses the past few years. I see these kinds of greens far too often. You can build a green with severe run-offs, but they should be limited to one or two sides of the green. Even the most severe greens on Pinehurst no. 2, like 5 and 8, have severe run-offs around at most 30% of the green. The rest of the run-offs are down a 2 or 3 ft. high slope and only take your ball a few feet away from the green. On Hoylake's 17th, any miss carried your ball down a 10 ft+ hill, a few dozen feet away from the green.

I actually liked the look of the hole from the tee. But either the green needs to be lowered or some of the surrounding areas raised so that any miss isn't a disaster. You should always leave a side of the green that's reasonably safe as a bailout area such that if you miss there, the odds of hitting it back over the other side of the green are low.

Niall C

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2023, 09:05:33 AM »
Brett


Are you aware that they were playing from about 120 yards ? If you don't have a high degree of penalty for a miss then what is the point of having a short par 3 ?


Niall

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2023, 09:19:14 AM »
I would have thought that many would view the new 17th as a success for the week. Looking at the scoring breakdown, it would seem to have played pretty close to perfect.

  • 1-Eagle
  • 65-Birdies
  • 304-Pars
  • 72-Bogeys
  • 15-Double Bogeys
  • 22-Others
Average: 3.121
63% of the time it played at level par, 14% under par, 23% over par.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 10:17:55 AM by Ben Hollerbach »

Sean_A

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Re: 17 @ Royal Liverpool to be redesigned...
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2023, 09:36:53 AM »
The 17th hole looked like yet another example of an over-cooked Pinehurst green, which has been one of my biggest complaints about new courses the past few years. I see these kinds of greens far too often. You can build a green with severe run-offs, but they should be limited to one or two sides of the green. Even the most severe greens on Pinehurst no. 2, like 5 and 8, have severe run-offs around at most 30% of the green. The rest of the run-offs are down a 2 or 3 ft. high slope and only take your ball a few feet away from the green. On Hoylake's 17th, any miss carried your ball down a 10 ft+ hill, a few dozen feet away from the green.

I actually liked the look of the hole from the tee. But either the green needs to be lowered or some of the surrounding areas raised so that any miss isn't a disaster. You should always leave a side of the green that's reasonably safe as a bailout area such that if you miss there, the odds of hitting it back over the other side of the green are low.

Is it OK if the bailout area is a bunker?

I don't have an issue with the hole in isolation. Hoylake is a fairly penal course and this fits that mould. There are also some other sandy areas to help the hole blend visually with the course. I just despise the transition and wonder if something special couldn't have been achieved with the hole it replaced.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

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