News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« on: July 23, 2023, 01:59:01 PM »
Last week, I played a course designed by a prominent architect.  It's well-known and advertised in its region.

The design relies heavily on bunkers (especially including along fairways) and on sideboards, backboards, and kickplates on and around putting surfaces.

Playing conditions and course presentation, however, meant that bunkers weren't properly maintained.  Lack of firmness prevented any ground game.  Lack of rakes meant that sand surfaces were heavily trafficked, which meant footprint lies abounded.

Other aspects of the experience weren't good (~6 hr. pace of play, cart breaking down, no water on course, etc.).  Standards were just low across the board.

It think it's safe to assume that the golf course fails to approximate what the architect intended.  Original architectural merits have certainly been neglected. As it exists now, I'm not sure I would want my name associated with it.

At what point, if any, would an architect not want his or her name associated with a course that he or she designed?  Is there any instance of an architect requesting disassociation from a course or club?  Do contracts include clauses that would permit this (or not)?

Once a design is submitted and built, does the architect lose control of his or her affiliation with the club or course?
Can the architect stipulate certain, minimal requirements for course presentation?  If so, how would these even be enforced?

Architects on the site might not even feel comfortable responding, which I understand.

WW
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 08:44:28 AM by Wade Whitehead »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2023, 03:54:22 PM »
When I was a member at Four Streams, Steve Smyers came to inspect the course and make changes that were dictated by how the hole played. Here and there, he tweaked the course. More courses should do the same thing.



Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2023, 07:26:46 PM »
   I think Pete Dye and Greg Norman asked that their names be taken off The Medalist, not because it wasn’t maintained, but because they didn’t like changes that had been made.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 07:29:28 PM by Jim_Coleman »

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2023, 07:47:33 PM »
Is there anything like this in the world of building architecture?  Did Frank Lloyd Wright or Frank Gehrey ask to have their names removed from buildings or houses they designed due to modifications. I assume not, since I can’t find an example on the internet. I visited a FLW home once. It was awesome, but it had been remodeled several times. The owners were still proud it was a FLW. Proud enough to charge admission.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2023, 08:49:25 PM »
I think the big-name guys include in their contracts that the course can't make changes without their input/approval, that it must be maintained to certain standards, and so on. The value of the Nicklaus/Fazio/etc. name is such that the course doesn't want to risk losing the ability to use it.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2023, 10:23:49 AM »
When I was a member at Four Streams, Steve Smyers came to inspect the course and make changes that were dictated by how the hole played. Here and there, he tweaked the course. More courses should do the same thing.
Rumor had it that he also declined to support a tweak in some instances (#11, I think, but don't clearly recall).

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2023, 10:30:21 AM »
We all work at the pleasure of the owner and facts are always a defense.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2023, 01:03:40 PM »
I wonder if TD ever got back to Riverfront and saw all the clumbsy bunker removal, he might be inclined to disown?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2023, 06:17:44 PM »
It's a fact of life in this business that we don't control what happens to our courses.  We don't own them.


Personally, I think it's the height of arrogance to present a contract that says the owner can't make changes without your approval.  A very few designers have had the power to put that clause in their contract, and I'm sure they have had some contentious discussions about it.


Factually, if I designed the course, it's pretty hard for me to insist that the golf course not use my name unless the changes are pretty significant or someone else becomes involved.  At that point, I think it's fair to ask.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2023, 06:52:49 PM »
When I was a member at Four Streams, Steve Smyers came to inspect the course and make changes that were dictated by how the hole played. Here and there, he tweaked the course. More courses should do the same thing.
Rumor had it that he also declined to support a tweak in some instances (#11, I think, but don't clearly recall).


Bernie, the membership never liked 11. There were all kinds of suggestions out there. None of them helped much. The creek is just in the wrong place and the uphill 200 yard shot is not fun. The tee shot is blind and well struck tee shots can end up in no man’s land before the creek. However, I have a buddy that holed out his second shot three wood for a dandy two. In the 15 years I was a member, I can count on two hands the birdies I made.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back