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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2023, 02:19:50 PM »
A typical par 4 or 5 comprises of about 2 acres of fw, 3 acres of rough, and from 0-0.2 acres of fw bunker, meaning your chance of hitting a fw bunker is about 4% statistically.
I suspect they might take up more than 4% of the maintenance budget though.
Atb


Jeff’s 4% number is a bit simplistic because it’s dealing with all fairway and rough as being equal. In reality, the average golfer hits close to the distance of a bunker much more often than he hits it 50 yards or 350 yards off the tee (where there are rarely fairway bunkers placed)… plus the ball runs so it doesn’t stick on one patch of fairway.

Sean_A

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2023, 02:54:57 PM »
A typical par 4 or 5 comprises of about 2 acres of fw, 3 acres of rough, and from 0-0.2 acres of fw bunker, meaning your chance of hitting a fw bunker is about 4% statistically.
I suspect they might take up more than 4% of the maintenance budget though.
Atb


Jeff’s 4% number is a bit simplistic because it’s dealing with all fairway and rough as being equal. In reality, the average golfer hits close to the distance of a bunker much more often than he hits it 50 yards or 350 yards off the tee (where there are rarely fairway bunkers placed)… plus the ball runs so it doesn’t stick on one patch of fairway.

All golf stats are misleading.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

mike_malone

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2023, 03:11:39 PM »
I like Flynn’s idea that fairway bunkers shouldn’t be penalizers but rather present a problem and be an aid to the mode of play. They often seem to be very site specific.
So they are important as they have a strong visual effect.


In some instances I think he was just going for beauty or contrast with the green color.

AKA Mayday

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2023, 04:20:59 PM »
Sorry if there was some confusion in my intent

I wasn't speaking broadly around the presence of any/all fairway hazards, but specifically of sand bunkers.

Modern statistical analysis has suggested that we as players can overall ignore the presence of fairway bunkers, in lieu of other greater risks. When Doak built Memorial Park he eliminated nearly all fairway bunkers, based on advice from Brooks Koepka that they posed little challenge to the tour player. It seems that in many ways the place of the fairway bunker in today's version of golf is negligible, or at best an imbalanced hazard that is more penal to the below average player.

Thus my question are fairway bunkers significant in a holes design? Is there merit to keep them broadly and if so, what are the best examples that showcase that merit?

I am confused. Are you saying that players ignore bunkers in comparison to, say, rough? If that's what you mean, then the risk-profile of the rough has trumped the risk-profile of the adjacent bunker, but it's hard for me to square that depending on the bunker lip size and adjacent area.

My guess is that the issue isn't the bunkering itself, it's the relatively mild penalty players get when the bunkering is set into tournament-length rough.

For ClubTFE members, resident nerd Garrett Morrison wrote a piece that would suggest otherwise: "Who’s Afraid of a Center-Line Bunker?: The bunker in the fifth fairway at the Plantation Course is three years old. How's it doing?"
The article points out:

Quote
He marked the spot, and the next morning he went out with Ben, who agreed the tee shot on 5 had become ‘mindless.’ They discussed placing a bunker in the center of the patch of divots, to force players to position their drives. Crenshaw suggested that some may choose to aim at the bunker and fade it into the right side of the fairway, which would still be some 40 yards wide, but edged by that ravine. They flagged out the proposed bunker [at about 300 yards].

This is a time-honored trope of strategic golf course design: find where the best players’ drives end up and build a hazard in that exact spot. It’s essentially what John Low and Stuart Paton did in their pathbreaking renovation of the fourth hole at Woking. They forced skilled golfers to risk something for the reward of a favorable position in the fairway.

Reasonable solution, right? Not really, according to various geniuses at the PGA Tour:

Soon, [NBC commentator Mark] Rolfing, [PGA Tour VP of design services Steve] Wenzloff, and tour officials inspected it. Tour players don’t like bunkers in the center of the fairway, they said. Especially a bunker so deep that they can only pitch out sideways.

...

According to Coore, the intention of the change on No. 5 was to persuade the pros not to bash it mindlessly up the left side of the fairway. In this isolated sense, the bunker might be working. The scatter plots of tee shots from the past three years, compared to those from 2017 to 2019, suggest that players have shifted their lines slightly to the right.

I'm no expert, I'm certainly not even a pro golf fan. I'm just guessing the stats we're talking about are just skewed. If most of the bunkers we're talking about being ignored are in-rough set fairway bunkers, they it might not be the bunkers that don't matter, it's that the rough has become over-powered and needs to be nerfed a bit. I definitely experienced this playing at Harding Park in the run up to the PGA Championship, where I literally lost multiple balls just one or two yards off the fairway in the higher-than-ankle-deep rough.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 04:23:56 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Joe Hancock

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2023, 06:26:09 PM »
A typical par 4 or 5 comprises of about 2 acres of fw, 3 acres of rough, and from 0-0.2 acres of fw bunker, meaning your chance of hitting a fw bunker is about 4% statistically.  How often you miss the fw is dependent on design and individiual game, but is probably almost 50% on your typical course.  If a fw bunker is placed in a really critical location, your chance might double, but it is still small.


This is interesting. I think the fairway bunkers should dictate and set up angles of attack of the next shot, so the percentage of balls ending up in them would matter less to me vs. just having them exist to serve as a penalty. Not sure if that is stating what I’m actually thinking, but close enough.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Mayhugh

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2023, 06:49:24 PM »
A typical par 4 or 5 comprises of about 2 acres of fw, 3 acres of rough, and from 0-0.2 acres of fw bunker, meaning your chance of hitting a fw bunker is about 4% statistically.
I suspect they might take up more than 4% of the maintenance budget though.
Atb


Jeff’s 4% number is a bit simplistic because it’s dealing with all fairway and rough as being equal. In reality, the average golfer hits close to the distance of a bunker much more often than he hits it 50 yards or 350 yards off the tee (where there are rarely fairway bunkers placed)… plus the ball runs so it doesn’t stick on one patch of fairway.

The only way the 4% stat makes any sense is if all golf shots were random and could be taken from anywhere on the course at any time. Otherwise, it's absurd. That suggests that someone from the forward tees is as likely to hit their tee shot onto the tee area behind them than they are in a fairway bunker in front of them. I suppose someone could look at distance and dispersion charts and come up with a better answer, but I don't think good golf design is a math and probability exercise.

As for the original post, take a look at Royal Melbourne and explain how removing bunkers wouldn't impact the quality of the course.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2023, 10:39:39 PM »
I saw this thread yesterday but I was traveling and couldn't post a long response on my phone.


First of all, the quotes attributed to Brooks Koepka [originally related by me] have been truncated and taken out of context.  It was a longer discussion than I could try to quote here, but his first point was that the revetted bunkers in the U.K. had real penalty value and had to be taken into account when plotting strategy, but that very few bunkers in America had that sort of impact on strategy for elite players, because the penalty for being in one was very marginal.  Whereas, all the bunkers we build over here have a big impact on (a) the poorer player who struggles in bunkers and (b) the maintenance budget.


To Mark Kiely's point, some of the bunkers at Oak Hill did seem to be VERY penal and I 100% believe that Brooks would have identified those and played away from them or clearly past them or short of them, and would say that Hovland and Conners made major tactical blunders that cost them their chance to win.  Indeed, he pretty much stepped on Hovland's neck about five seconds after he'd taken two shots to get out of the bunker.


Joe Hancock's point is a good one, that the value of a bunker is not just in the penalty for players who hit into it, but also the extra difficulty in recovery for the players who hit wide of it -- but that is a MUCH bigger factor for average players than for TOUR players who have so superior skill at stopping the ball on a little pitch.


Mike Malone's point is also a good one, that for visual and psychological reasons, the placement of bunkers will affect how the average golfer looks at the hole and plans to attack it, but that also has less impact on the pros.  In my experience, fairway bunkers tend to lure players to hit toward them and past them -- which may be counterproductive in trying to keep those players from going low -- while greenside bunkers can be arranged to lure players away from the hole, instead of just firing at the flag.


I don't think fairway bunkers are useless, but I do think that their impact is overrated, unless you are talking about places with great bunkering like Ganton or Woodhall Spa or Merion or Royal Melbourne.  From a designer's perspective, they are a crutch to use when the rest of your design is not so interesting.  Perry Maxwell, in particular, hardly built any fairway bunkers on most of his courses [probably just because sand was scarce in Oklahoma], and I think his courses are very strategic . . . it's just that more of that strategy is based on the green contours, on trees and fairway shapes, and on the entrances to the greens.  There are hardly any fairway bunkers on the back nine at Crystal Downs, and adding them would be superfluous.


Not sure if I've answered all of the questions directed at me, and maybe I've ignored one or two posts that were off topic or willful misrepresentations of what I've said.


Just to make things interesting, though, I will mention here that my plan is to incorporate deep and impactful fairway bunkering on the next two projects we are about to start, in south Florida and in northern Texas.  Brooks' statement got me thinking that the important caveat was that it's pointless to build bunkers that aren't difficult, but it's not pointless to build bunkers that have real value.  It just didn't make sense to try and make those bunkers at a tree-lined muni in Houston where they were trying to get 60,000 people around and not spend much on maintenance . . . the calculation is way different for two small-membership private clubs with ample budgets and [in Florida at least] few other natural hazards.  I've contemplated using Ecobunker, but to start we are just going to try to incorporate some very skinny hazards with very steep faces, and then decide whether or not they need revetting . . . just as things evolved in Britain over a long period.

Sean_A

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2023, 01:16:09 AM »
I would add Muirfield to the list Tom. Although, I have always felt bunkers dominate the strategy and for that reason I don't like concept nearly as much as others. I suspect the relatively dull land is the main reason for the bunker scheme.

A place like Lytham is a different story. There are so many bunkers that any concept of balanced features is thrown out the window. It's a highly distasteful design so far as I am concerned.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2023, 03:00:51 AM »
Yes, bottom line is as Tom states that fairway bunkering as a strategic tool is slightly overrated and as an aesthetic tool provides an easy way to add dramatic interest / impact to a hole.


I find that most architects use them either as an aesthetic tool or in a paint by numbers idea of strategic placing. They are generally better used by placing in natural rolls of the land exactly because they are overrated as strategic tools. That is not excusing their positioning, just suggesting that one doesn’t get too hung up on the exact distance from the tee etc… (particularly on windy links courses).


There was temptation at Strandhill to add drama on certain holes by using more fairway bunkering. It took a lot of constraint to keep things simple on holes like 16 which is vast in its panorama and could easily have accommodated more fairway aesthetics. I plumped instead for one small centreline pot and one greenside bunker to work with it.


I like deep enough fairway bunkers that they are proper penalties. It’s funny the amount of people (pro’s, good golfers) that have said to me that there should be some reward for their level of golf in that they hate a chip out sideways and want to be able to advance 70-90 yards. Very specific but not too greedy. They are still accepting their half to full shot penalty but want it to still involve some element of skill.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 03:34:48 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Thomas Dai

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2023, 04:16:56 AM »
Just to make things interesting, though, I will mention here that my plan is to incorporate deep and impactful fairway bunkering on the next two projects we are about to start, in south Florida and in northern Texas. Brooks' statement got me thinking that the important caveat was that it's pointless to build bunkers that aren't difficult, but it's not pointless to build bunkers that have real value. 
I like the sound of this.
atb
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 04:19:46 AM by Thomas Dai »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2023, 06:38:53 AM »
I would add Muirfield to the list Tom. Although, I have always felt bunkers dominate the strategy and for that reason I don't like concept nearly as much as others. I suspect the relatively dull land is the main reason for the bunker scheme.

A place like Lytham is a different story. There are so many bunkers that any concept of balanced features is thrown out the window. It's a highly distasteful design so far as I am concerned.



I wasn't including links courses in my list because I figured it was generally accepted that most links bunkers have an impact.  For me, Muirfield and St Andrews have always been the gold standard, both for placement and even more for shaping.  Most of the faces at Muirfield are quite low, with short grass that feeds into them, but they are also so narrow that you're always right up against the low face so you have to think very hard about whether to just get out or try anything more than that.  Hoylake, by contrast, has been ruined by the impetus to make every bunker as deep and penal as possible.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2023, 06:42:46 AM »
Just to make things interesting, though, I will mention here that my plan is to incorporate deep and impactful fairway bunkering on the next two projects we are about to start, in south Florida and in northern Texas. Brooks' statement got me thinking that the important caveat was that it's pointless to build bunkers that aren't difficult, but it's not pointless to build bunkers that have real value. 
I like the sound of this.
atb


The hardest part of this will be trying to decide how much is too much, when the bunkers really DO matter.  There will be some pressure to put more bunkers in Florida because there is not much else there visually [the site is barren now], but to Sean's point, 80-100 bunkers in this style is probably far too many.  I might have to throw in a few "defunct" bunkers for eye candy in places where they are unlikely to see a lot of play.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2023, 06:47:10 AM »

I find that most architects use them either as an aesthetic tool or in a paint by numbers idea of strategic placing. They are generally better used by placing in natural rolls of the land exactly because they are overrated as strategic tools. That is not excusing their positioning, just suggesting that one doesn’t get too hung up on the exact distance from the tee etc… (particularly on windy links courses).



100% my view, too.


When we were building Sebonack I had the sense that Jack Nicklaus and company would not really be able to imitate our style, because they were too hung up on the distances.  Jack frequently wanted to move a natural contour in the fairway twenty yards further downrange, so the bunker would be at just the right place for his idea of strategy.  Mostly, these wound up in places where the typical member had no chance to carry any of them.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2023, 10:32:52 AM »
My first round of golf was Medinah No. 3 in March of 1968.  I knew I wanted to be a gca after that round, and at that point, I "knew" that deeper bunkers were going to be my style.  That started getting beat out of me on May 23, 1977.....my first day as an apprentice at Killian and Nugent.  Architects, and really, they are just reflecting on what the public seems to want, were more into more but shallower bunkers, since aesthetics were always important, and the pace of play, especially on public courses was beginning to be a problem.


So, I agree deeper bunkers would definitely make them more important, but really didn't do a lot of them.  And, when I did, I made the fw wider to give more room to miss.  I was once asked by a shaper how deep to make the fw bunkers, and perhaps struggling for something pithy to say, came up with "2 feet deep for a 2 iron to the green, up to 9 feet deep when its a 9 iron to the green."  My goal was to make each bunker about a 50-50 proposition as to whether you could get out towards the green, but not impossible.  If too deep, the only reasonable play is away, and if too shallow they mean nothing, so I thought that was a nice, if a bit vague middle ground, i.e., a shot might be a 6 iron for you and a 4 iron for me, so even then, I slid to the consideration of the average player, which is probably a bit too easy for the tour pros......who were never going to show up at most of my public designs anyway.


The design brief is rarely to make a great course for low handicappers at the potential expense of B, C, and D players, and many designs reflect that.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

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Re: How important are fairway bunkers?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2023, 11:18:49 AM »
As a 14 handicap I try to avoid fairway bunkers as they typically cost me a stroke.  With a fairway bunker on the right I will tee my ball on the far right hand of the box and aim at the left edge of the fairway 220 yards out as my misses move right .  It’s not unprecedented to lose the ball way right into the bunker anyway.  So, what is that bunkers purpose?  To add insult to injury?  Wise strategy gets trumped by poor execution.


The challenge for me (and my understanding is that my GHIN is the average in the US) is execution - anywhere in the short grass or on the green is a win for me.  One exception - my green side bunker play still reflects my long gone 4 handicap. 


How about allowing the architect 18 modest fairway bunkers for the entire course - forcing their highest and best use.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 11:20:38 AM by Mike Hendren »
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