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ChasLawler

Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« on: December 04, 2003, 10:07:15 AM »
Someone made a comment on a previous thread about how he didn’t feel walking should be factored into course ratings. I believe I’m correct in stating that at least one of the major publications actually awards bonus points for allowing walking at all times. While I’m a great proponent of allowing walking, I can’t really see why that should factor in to a course’s rating - if it even does.

What I do think should factor in – and should factor in big time – is the walkability (for lack of a real word) of a golf course. I suppose this ties in with routing, but it seems a good number of the newer courses being constructed are designed with no thought for the walking golfer. I understand some architects have their hands tied by greedy developers and massive wetland restrictions, but should these new “carts only” designs really be compared to those created before they advent of the golf cart, or those designed with the walker in mind.

Today’s architect – given a large enough site – has the liberty to basically create holes wherever they want, using only the best land to create each hole. Developers and owners seem to almost encourage a spread out design (regardless of planned housing) as an un-walkable golf course will only create more cart revenue.

 I use Royal New Kent in Virginia as an example. Mike Strantz created 18 undulating, visually stunning and some very strategic holes. It’s routed so that every golfer will feel as if he or she is alone on the course, and each hole uses the land very well. But the distances between holes are immense, ranging anywhere from 100 to 400+ yards. Only the very brave (and I know of at least one other person on this site) would dare walk the course. While the holes at RNK are a joy to play (especially when firm), I’ve always left the course feeling as if I just spent a third of the time driving through the woods between holes.

What I’m getting at - is that the golf cart seems to have taken some of the skill out of routing the golf course. Today’s architect can build his holes on only the best land a site has to offer with no concern for the golfer getting from hole to hole. It seems a modern architect can almost design a course hole by hole, with no regard for the big picture, except to perhaps get back to the clubhouse at 9 and 18. To me a large part of what I enjoy about GCA is seeing how an architect routed a golf course and reveling at the imagination that must have required.

I’m not saying there’s not a place for carts-only golf, but I just feel as if the design process for some of these carts-only facilities shouldn’t even be compared to the design of a walker friendly golf course.

moth

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2003, 10:15:03 AM »
"Today’s architect – given a large enough site – has the liberty to basically create holes wherever they want, using only the best land to create each hole. Developers and owners seem to almost encourage a spread out design (regardless of planned housing) as an un-walkable golf course will only create more cart revenue."

I'm sorry but what a bunch of B.S. When does an architect get a "large enough site".

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2003, 10:17:14 AM »
I have no idea who in their right mind would walk RNK.  ::)  Oh, wait.  I'm left-handed, so technically I am in my right mind, but.....

A few things that get factored in in modern times is the availability of good land to route walkable courses.  Another is environmental restrictions, which the 'old guys' didn't have to deal with.  They just eliminated wetlands (called 'swamps' back then).

But I agree that carts and massive earth moving equipment have reduced the skills of good routing from some architects (assuming they had it to start with).

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2003, 10:20:55 AM »
Brett,

Here in the States, some architects are given huge properties to deal with.  Royal New Kent, mentioned above, and it's sister coruse, Stonehouse are on very large pieces of land, perhaps 200-400 acres each.  Stonehouse is partly a housing course, but the course was routed first, with the 'best' land chosen for the course.  A course near me in NC was built on something like 365 acres, making every hole separate from all others.

ChasLawler

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2003, 10:24:45 AM »
Quote
I'm sorry but what a bunch of B.S. When does an architect get a "large enough site".

Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, all 4 courses at Barefoot Resort in Myrtle Beach, Gaillardia, World Woods - Pine Barrens, Wintergreen - Stoney Creek, Bay Creek...just off the top of my head.

I haven't played one course in the GD Best Upscale Public, but I feel pretty comfortable in assuming that at least half of those courses have expansive distances between greens and tees with plenty of acreage to spare.

You're getting away from the point anyway Brett - that today's architect, in many cases, does not have to concern himself with the walking golfer, which gives him free reign, so to speak, to place holes where he chooses.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2003, 01:44:43 PM by Rannulph_Junah »

ChasLawler

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2003, 10:45:36 AM »
Quote
A few things that get factored in in modern times is the availability of good land to route walkable courses.  Another is environmental restrictions, which the 'old guys' didn't have to deal with.  They just eliminated wetlands (called 'swamps' back then).

That's a good point Scott, I'm sure some of the best classics could have never been built under today's environmental restrictions.

I suppose my grumbling just go back to the tired ideal that golf was meant to be enjoyed walking, and therefore golf courses should be designed for such. Walking the course is part of the charm of the game to me. Most American golfers today probably don't even know what a dual strap bag is - the cart has become so engrained in our culture. And while I certainly can't blame a golf course architect for the advent of the golf cart, I can blame him for perpetuating it's use with his spread all over the place routing.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2003, 01:39:39 PM by Rannulph_Junah »

RJ_Daley

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2003, 11:47:16 AM »
I have to agree that walkability has to be factored into the overall assessment of the complete picture.  I don't care what system you are using to rate/assess/evaluate golf courses.  I don't care what percentage or number of points you assign in your system.  But, something has to be assigned to the walkability factor to the extent that no course can get a perfect score if it is not walkable.

I was really conflicted with these beliefs upon visiting Sutton Bay this fall.   It is really a great golf course.  Despite the Director of Golf and facility Manager's assurance that he often goes out and walks the course, and has cut paths to shortcut some of the several hundred yard roundabouts of hillsides with significant elevation change green to next tee, it really isn't walkable for much less than a marathon runner.  And, that aspect simply would never allow me to give it the full 100% score.  Then again, what course is a real 10 Doak scale, or 100 your own personal?  Sutton has a few other very minor flaws (in my personal view that I wouldn't expect to get consensus from all golfers on).  But, it is one of the very best I've played... except it isn't really walkable. :-\

But, that still leaves the question of whether the architect got the most out of the property.  It seems to me that big properties are worse for the archie to deal with in conflicting them over routing than confined properties in that it is almost logical that if you aren't limitted to the confinement, you probably have more terrain to locate superior holes.

But, if walkability isn't an integral part of the whole picture, then what the heck was the Casey Martin thing all about?  If walking isn't a core issue, then let all the pros take carts too.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2003, 11:56:02 AM »
The farther the next tee gets from the previous hole, the further we get away from the origins. The number is something like 85% of golfers ride. Even if it's well routed, I doubt that number would fall far enough to ever get my sympathy for the principle. So, archies don't have to design in the long arduous walks anymore, do they?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2003, 12:09:08 PM »
Adam,

The last statistics I have is that 55-60% of golfers ride, but you made your point!

The original post is probably correct - as the game changed so did design emphasis in many cases.  Now, routings worry about accomodating housing, environmental restraints, safety (with lawyers, and more play, and our for need accomodating obligatory cart paths,  even when the design calls for "adjacent" tees and greens, we need to put greens and tees further apart), and the desire for Spectacular holes, green and tee proximity is lower down the list in many routings.

Is routing a lost art?  No, but the artists canvass has changed.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2003, 01:02:04 PM »
"What I’m getting at - is that the golf cart seems to have taken some of the skill out of routing the golf course."

Rannulph:

I think you're right about that. I think a good analogy to a good routing on a walking course is something like doing a jigsaw puzzle but you need to simultaneously route and identify and sort of design all the pieces (holes) as you route as to how the whole thing fits TOGETHER like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle fitting together perfectly. For obvious reasons this can create a lot of problems trying to get what you want and need to fit TOGETHER perfectly and it isn't very easy to do well.

But with a cart only golf course who's holes are completely separated from each other it's sort of like just finding or making the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle but of course you don't  have the same problem as with a walking course which is how to fit them (holes) together like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2003, 01:16:06 PM »
Thanx Jeff, my numbers must be regional. ;D I guess It really does matter what the focus of the project is. Having seen quite few well routed modern designs in the last few years, I guess the common denom is that only one of them was going to eventually have houses on a few holes.
 Other factors, as Jeff eludes to, are the changes in the game. Not only are there more golfers in closer proximity to each other but, being able to unleash a missle of space age design, with an implement large enough to choke an elephant, routings like the first 12 at SFGC are few and far between.

frank_D

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2003, 03:12:47 PM »
to fit TOGETHER perfectly and it isn't very easy to do well.But with a cart only golf course ... you don't  have the same problem as with a walking course which is how to fit them (holes) together like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

just curious but why was it done in the past (courses designed and built and only walkers played golf - before the cart) and today with available technologies like CAD/CAM, satelite photo images, etc a route cannot be generated by virtual design - allowing for all the pieces to fit - to produce a complete course - even before a shovel of dirt is dug ?

paul cowley

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2003, 06:47:54 PM »
...give me a square canvas of 160 acres of flat land in kansas and i'll give you a 7200 yd course with with no more than twenty steps to the next tee every time [with club house ,range ,parking and maintenance ]........any variations,[and there are many that have been spoken of previously]complicate and add acres and longer cart paths to the above ...............
« Last Edit: December 04, 2003, 07:59:04 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2003, 10:13:50 PM »
FrankD:

In the old days due to the necessity of walking routings just had to fit together tighter--the holes in the routing had to. Now the holes of a modern course can be and are much more separated and segmented. Looking at an aerial of a routing of a modern course through housing or whatever looks so different than looking at an aerial of an older walking course. And today obviously they have the equipment and facilty to alter whole hole landforms far more easily than they once did so finding more natural landforms in close proximity that work without alteration for golf isn't so necessary.

In the old days on land with some topography and natural obstacles I think sequencing the holes into a good routing just was more complicated than it is today.

What's harder finding the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle and fitting them together tight (green to next tee) or just making the pieces of the puzzle so they look from the air, for instance, like they're just laying on a big table without being fit together?

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2003, 10:23:44 PM »
TEP,

Excellent observation.  I look at my home club (Dubuque Golf & CC) built back near the turn of the century, and what you say definitely holds true...tight land for the course, many natural land features, and a routing that seems to fit in very "intimately" around the property.  Has it been altered over time, well yes of course...but the fatc remains that the tee to green distances are quite small making for a "quick" round that much easier.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

paul cowley

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2003, 10:32:47 PM »
....tom... i don't think todays routing constraints are any less complicated than the days of old...given all the 'givens' one faces today ,it might even be more difficult.
 i wish at all times  that a projects requirements were for a core course ...rarely so ,and i am at times envious of the old timers more blank canvases...topo or no topo,earth moving equipment or not........
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

A_Clay_Man

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2003, 10:01:40 AM »
Art ocurrs when the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

When archies have to put the tee, so far away on every hole, it makes the sum of the whole's ability to be greater than it's parts, much more difficult. Or so I've found.

frank_D

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2003, 01:20:06 PM »
Now the holes of a modern course can be and are much more separated and segmented.

doesn't this put more reliance on carts and doom walking ?


TEPaul

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2003, 02:07:57 PM »
frank D;

Of course it does. Courses that are routed that way aren't intended for walking golfers only riding golfers.

Sometimes the effect of that is something that creates problems for some of those new courses with hugely segmented routings designed only for cart use.

At the Golf Association of Philadelphia as well as the Pennsylvania Golf Association our "Class A" tournaments of which there aren't all that many (State and City amateur championships et al) are the very tournaments that some of those new courses with those kinds of hugely segmented routings are dying to hold for obvious reasons but we really can't schedule those tournaments on them because both associations have a policy in those "Class A" tournaments of walking only and I don't think that will ever change.

We did schedule the State Am on one of them a few years ago around Pittsburgh and it was a real disaster. It was in August and hot as hell, most competitors had to carry their own bags because there weren't any caddies from the club or in the area. They had to have an army of volunteers in carts transporting us from some greens to the next tee or we all would've died if we hadn't gotten lost first!

The course was around 7,000 yds, maybe a five mile walk with close green to tees but on this thing the walk probably would've been closer to ten miles if we hadn't had that green to next tee transportation on many of those holes!


frank_D

Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2003, 09:01:50 AM »
brother TEPaul

to me that's sad - that the cart is integral to playing those types of courses

a cart PATH is an cement intrusion on a natural landscape

i have witnessed jerks in carts tearing up the place - i have never witnessed a walker doing the same

to this day it seems that walking is the rule everywhere else in the world of golf except the US

the only steady justification for carts i hear about is MONEY

oh well - i'm off - to look for a place that still sells 5 cent root beers

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2003, 08:42:30 PM »
This is an interesting question...or series of questions.

Routing today compared to the Golden Age (and prior...and through the 1960s) is much more complicated in my view. Regulations, liability, development, various client voices, environmental, cart-dependency and property values. The last, property values, outlays an extreme affect: That being that there is rarely such thing anymore as "white space" in designs. "White space" being the triangles or "un-useable" parcel areas which many years ago would have been forgotten and acceptable in routings. Today the necessity to fill every space is too often a first priority.

Remnant land is hardly ever a byproduct of today's golf courses. Of course, there are exceptions and these are often the best finished products.

Yes, it is very possible to design on flat or gentle land, a core course and create short walks between holes.

And yes, many of today's courses are built where golf "is not supposed to be played." And, yes, this causes walks (often) and carts (almost always.)

But — to carts — let's not take the position that they are purely bad for golf. Had motorized carts been available in the 1800s I am certain they would have been embraced by many golfers. It would disgust all among us, certainly. But so, too, would the motorized vehicle have been embraced in that age, and it would have been tempting to us all.

I, for one, applaud golf which can be walked. I look for it in my own work, but often fail at the experts who have taken every class in hand tying.

Have carts weakened routings? If you take the primary position that a golf course built where one "should not go" because of site or terrain  constraints is "weak" in and of itself...then yes. But, if you adopt the notion that such courses have a place in modern golf, then you must look beyond the distances between sequential holes to whether the routing is ideal beyond the constraints of the site. Does it surprise? Thrill? Provide a sense of adventure and intrigue?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2003, 08:44:06 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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Norbert P

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Re:Walking, Ratings and the Diminishing Art of Routing
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2003, 09:51:45 PM »
  Carts are ruining the spirit of the game and weakening the golfer.  How weak and spoiled will they be by next generation?I don't even think they should be allowed if keeping score unless one is truly physically handicapped.

  I will avoid paying for golf where I have to ride, or feel pressured to ride because of "complimentary" carts, and certainly will not praise its cartpaths as blending with natural terrain.  

Routing is losing some of its importance and attention because of some of the tradeoffs previously mentioned.

Cartball is corrosive to golf and design.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2003, 09:55:10 PM by Slag__Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M