‘Embedded?’ ‘balancing ball’ at Scottish Open (2023 Renaissance)

[Thomas Dai]

Thoughts on this - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HGaVSlbWu5U - and its outcome and implications?
Bit more here - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CT3wQIlRLEc
Not sure of best descriptive words hence using ‘embedded?’ and ‘balancing’ but I’m use you get the drift.
Atb

[David_Tepper]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/sam-burns-genesis-scottish-open-rules-ball-stuck-in-sod-bunker?utm_medium=email&utm_source=071523&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM42037&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0

[Tommy Williamsen]

The officials were correct, the ball wasn't embedded. It was floating on an angel wings.

[David Kelly]

One thing that occurs to me is that rather than laboriously describing the lie to someone over a walkie-talkie who presumably will be aiding in making a ruling, sight unseen, that the official on the scene could take a photo or video of the lie and text it to the official so he knows exactly what the situation is rather than having to picture it in his head.

[JohnVDB]

The ball was clearly not embedded in its pitch,ark which you can see directly above the ball.  The first official there was Steve Rintoul from the PGA Tour who is one of their top officials.  I love how he is trying, as all officials do, to find a way to give the player relief if the rules allow it.


As he said, he isn’t as familiar with these situations as the DP World Tour officials are.


The second official is a DPWT official and as he correctly said, if the local rule for relief from seams of cut turf was applied in this situation, it would mean that the entire concept of sod faced bunkers was invalid.


It sucks for Sam to have gotten a bad break. But that happens in golf.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the ball wasn’t embedded but i couldn’t find some words to better use other than balancing!
As aspect that concerns me somewhat is the maintenance aspect. Players, not just pros as in this case, but the potential for players generally and possibly repeatedly to ‘wack’ away at balls stuck or ‘floating on angel wings’ part-way up revetted bunker faces. Seem like an opportunity for causing unnecessary damage which in due course will require time consuming repairs.
Atb

[Wayne_Kozun]

One thing that isn't clear to me - was this ball deemed to be in the bunker or not?  Presumably it was not in the bunker as there was a discussion around whether the ball was embedded, and that point would have been moot if he was in the bunker since you don't get relief from an embedded ball in a bunker.
Assuming that he was not in the bunker, could he have taken an unplayable and gone back behind the bunker with a one stroke penalty?

[David_Tepper]

Per prior discussions on this board, my understanding is the face of a stacked-sod bunker is not in the bunker. In retrospect, Sam Burns might have been better off declaring an unplayable lie, dropping behind the bunker and taking the 1-stroke penalty.

[Pete_Pittock]

One thing that isn't clear to me - was this ball deemed to be in the bunker or not?  Presumably it was not in the bunker as there was a discussion around whether the ball was embedded, and that point would have been moot if he was in the bunker since you don't get relief from an embedded ball in a bunker.
Assuming that he was not in the bunker, could he have taken an unplayable and gone back behind the bunker with a one stroke penalty?

Wayne,
Check out the definition of a bunker:
Bunker A specially prepared area of sand, which is often a hollow from which turf or soil was removed.
These are not part of a bunker A lip, wall or face at the edge of a prepared area and consisting of soil, grass, stacked turf or artificial materials,
t]

• Soil or any growing or attached natural object inside the edge of a prepared area (such as grass, bushes or trees),

• Sand that has spilled over or is outside the edge of a prepared area, and

• All other areas of sand on the course that are not inside the edge of a prepared area (such as deserts and other natural sand areas or areas sometimes referred to as waste areas)

• Bunkers are one of the five defined areas of the course
  A Committee may define a prepared area of sand as part of the general area (which means it is not a bunker or may define a non-prepared area of sand as a bunker
  When a bunker is being repaired and the Committee defines the entire bunker as ground under repair, it is treated as part of the general area (which means it is not a bunkerThe word “sand” as used in this definition and Rule 12 includes any material similar to sand that is used as bunker material (such as crushed shells), as well as any soil that is mixed in with the sand.

[Sean_A]

Per prior discussions on this board, my understanding is the face of a stacked-sod bunker is not in the bunker. In retrospect, Sam Burns might have been better off declaring an unplayable lie, dropping behind the bunker and taking the 1-stroke penalty.

This is what I thought.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Per prior discussions on this board, my understanding is the face of a stacked-sod bunker is not in the bunker. In retrospect, Sam Burns might have been better off declaring an unplayable lie, dropping behind the bunker and taking the 1-stroke penalty.

This is what I thought.
Ciao

If the ball had trickled back down the bunker face and finished in the bunker sand but absolutely adjacent to the bunker face and he couldn’t play it out it would have been a one stroke penalty to drop the ball elsewhere in the bunker or a two stroke penalty to drop out the bunker.
This rule needs revising. A one stroke penalty to drop out of a bunker, like dropping when the ball has gone into a pond, is the way to go.
It would have other advantages too. Players with physical difficulties in entering/existing a bunker would have a more appropriate option (akin to a pond drop), less skilled players could drop out so quicker and less likelihood of repeated bunker shot damage, bunkers could even be more severe so more of a challenge for a better/elite player to recover from one or avoid one in the first place. Heck, the game could even go back to unraked pits of doom, places best avoided. Less maintenance time/cost too.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Per prior discussions on this board, my understanding is the face of a stacked-sod bunker is not in the bunker. In retrospect, Sam Burns might have been better off declaring an unplayable lie, dropping behind the bunker and taking the 1-stroke penalty.

This is what I thought.
Ciao

If the ball had trickled back down the bunker face and finished in the bunker sand but absolutely adjacent to the bunker face and he couldn’t play it out it would have been a one stroke penalty to drop the ball elsewhere in the bunker or a two stroke penalty to drop out the bunker.
This rule needs revising. A one stroke penalty to drop out of a bunker, like dropping when the ball has gone into a pond, is the way to go.
It would have other advantages too. Players with physical difficulties in entering/existing a bunker would have a more appropriate option (akin to a pond drop), less skilled players could drop out so quicker and less likelihood of repeated bunker shot damage, bunkers could even be more severe so more of a challenge for a better/elite player to recover from one or avoid one in the first place. Heck, the game could even go back to unraked pits of doom, places best avoided. Less maintenance time/cost too.
Atb

I think a one shot penalty to drop in the bunker or back to where he hit the ball for a shot penalty and distance.

I agree with you. I would prefer one shot penalty out of the bunker. Consistent with water.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

It would be interesting to know why the 2 shot penalty to drop out of a bunker was introduced. Perhaps John VDB has some background insights and reasoning into the matter?
Atb

[Wayne_Kozun]

It would be interesting to know why the 2 shot penalty to drop out of a bunker was introduced. Perhaps John VDB has some background insights and reasoning into the matter?
Atb

Good question, and that two shot penalty was only introduced in the 2019 revisions to the rules.
My guess is that they still wanted bunker play to be part of the game and did not want the option to drop outside of the bunker to be an easy out for players. But you make a good point that it is less penal to take a drop out of a penalty area than a bunker.

[JohnVDB]

It would be interesting to know why the 2 shot penalty to drop out of a bunker was introduced. Perhaps John VDB has some background insights and reasoning into the matter?
Atb

First, there was a fair amount of opposition to even allowing dropping out for two strokes as it was felt that being able to play from bunkers was an integral skill that players should master. Eventually the forces of good won out. 


Additionally, the Rules before 2019 said that if you had interference from something from which you were entitled to take free relief you could take free relief in the bunker or drop outside back-on-the-line for one stroke.  So, it was natural in taking an unplayable you could drop in the bunker for one stroke and outside BOTL for two strokes.


Also with the change to drop from knee height, dropping in bunkers should be less penal as balls will plug less.


Burns should have considered taking the unplayable when his ball was above the bunker as it was obvious he probably couldn’t advance it very far if at all and dropping behind the bunker would have given him a chance to get his fourth on the green.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you John.
Seems like those involved in the decision making were good players rather than high handicappers and/or folks with age or physical issues!
Fingers crossed but breath not being held that things might change sometime.
Atb

[Niall C]

Thank you John.
Seems like those involved in the decision making were good players rather than high handicappers and/or folks with age or physical issues!
Fingers crossed but breath not being held that things might change sometime.
Atb

David


It seems to me that the answer to your plea should be a design solution rather than a change in the rules. As usual MacKenzie was ahead of the game by advocating bunkering that had a variety of low lips that you could virtually putt out of and other parts of the bunker which required a more traditional bunker shot. Basically not all bunkers need to be a cavernous pit.


The other aspect is older or less physically fit golfers (and I'm now moving towards that category) actually getting in and out of some of the pot bunkers you get on links. Some courses actually have steps down into some of the deeper ones and I think that is a good idea. Changing the rules as you propose wouldn't actually address the access issue unless you are suggesting the players be allowed to abandon their ball in the bunker so as not to have to go into the bunker to retrieve it ?


Niall

[JohnVDB]

Thank you John.
Seems like those involved in the decision making were good players rather than high handicappers and/or folks with age or physical issues!
Fingers crossed but breath not being held that things might change sometime.
Atb

David


It seems to me that the answer to your plea should be a design solution rather than a change in the rules. As usual MacKenzie was ahead of the game by advocating bunkering that had a variety of low lips that you could virtually putt out of and other parts of the bunker which required a more traditional bunker shot. Basically not all bunkers need to be a cavernous pit.


The other aspect is older or less physically fit golfers (and I'm now moving towards that category) actually getting in and out of some of the pot bunkers you get on links. Some courses actually have steps down into some of the deeper ones and I think that is a good idea. Changing the rules as you propose wouldn't actually address the access issue unless you are suggesting the players be allowed to abandon their ball in the bunker so as not to have to go into the bunker to retrieve it ?


Niall

There is never a requirement to retrieve your ball if you’re declaring it unplayable, although you do have to be able to identify it before using options other than stroke and distance.p. (See Patrick Reed in The Middle East earlier this year 🙄).

[Thomas Dai]

Not sure about design being the answer as it would involve changing so many bunkers on so many courses. Not sure a playing will abandon a ball in a bunker, not at £3+ each for a top of the range ball. And anyway a playing partner could always pick it up for them. The step issue is another matter especially if the ball or stance is effected by the steps themselves but probably best not to go there just now!


There’s an inconsistency here between bunkers and ponds which I’m uncomfortable with and I’m not sure the pre/post 2019 situation covers it as well as it could.


And yes some folks are good bunker players and some poor/awful bunker players. I don’t like the idea of poor/awful bunker players wacking away numerous times and failing to get their ball out of bunkers though. This isn’t fun for them nor is it much fun if you’re waiting in the group behind. Give such players an option just like if they’re in the middle of a pond. There’s a maintenance aspect too if folks are thrashing away damaging bunkers especially revetted face ones. The options under the current rules don’t make the alternatives attractive. Make the game simpler and importantly these days given pace of play issues, allow for it to be played quicker.


Atb

[Niall C]

David


And how many of those poor bunker players ever decide to go out sideways or backwards where there is often little or no lip ? Also, what about those players that can't hit a driver to save their life - should we just do away with tees ? Or for people like me who aren't very good mid to long iron players - should we get not get to tee it up on the fairway ?


Whatever happened to the notion of play it where it lies ? An unplayable should be just that - not some tactical decision to save yourself a stroke.


Niall

[JohnVDB]

David


And how many of those poor bunker players ever decide to go out sideways or backwards where there is often little or no lip ? Also, what about those players that can't hit a driver to save their life - should we just do away with tees ? Or for people like me who aren't very good mid to long iron players - should we get not get to tee it up on the fairway ?


Whatever happened to the notion of play it where it lies ? An unplayable should be just that - not some tactical decision to save yourself a stroke.


Niall

In 1995 my wife and I went to Scotland to play golf.  She was a fairly new golfer.  The second course we played was Royal Dornoch.  On the second hole she hit her tee shot into the right green side bunker. She went in there and chipped it out backwards.  I just smiled and said, “Now I see how you were Phi Beta Kappa.”

[Ken Moum]

In 1995 my wife and I went to Scotland to play golf.  She was a fairly new golfer.  The second course we played was Royal Dornoch.  On the second hole she hit her tee shot into the right green side bunker. She went in there and chipped it out backwards.  I just smiled and said, “Now I see how you were Phi Beta Kappa.”

Sometimes "strategic" golf means understanding the odds of making a shot.


I catch all kinds of hell (mostly good-natured) about how I play some of the holes at my home course. One of which has me laying up from as close as 125 yards, because the green is elevated and I am a low-trajectory player.


They accuse me of playing for bogey, while I like my odds of getting up and down from in front of the green better than being right, left or long.