Painted cups thread 2.0

[John Connolly]

A 2013 thread on this topic was about 60/40 in favor of painted cups during regular, non-tournament play. Chief reason in favor was for better visibility for older players. Leading reason to not paint was additional time and cost. Reasons to paint for tournament play are well-accepted - better visibility for spectators and when televised, the camera.


Has this 60/40 "in favor of" ratio changed in 10 years? Where do you guys fall on the matter in 2023? And I'm wondering if there is a regional bias.

[Tom_Doak]

It's just another example of televised tournament golf adding unnecessary cost and hassle to the real game.


Also, I hope superintendents can chime in on whether the paint makes it harder for the old cups to heal.  I suspect it would, but I don't have any first hand experience with it.

[David_Tepper]

With more and more golfers putting with the flagstick in, that certainly reduces/eliminates the need to paint the cups for better visibility.

[Ken Moum]

It's just another example of televised tournament golf adding unnecessary cost and hassle to the real game.

My sentiments exactly.


I think Tepper is right, too

[Tom Bacsanyi]

If your club has time and staff to paint cups for daily play, your greenkeeping team is overstaffed.

[Peter Sayegh]

Painted v. non-painted?
Is this a real thing?
Is it a private club thing?

[Carl Johnson]

From a very old golfer with bad eyesight.  No need to paint the cups at all for club play including club tournament play.  Flagstick is a nice target.

[Ken Moum]

Painted v. non-painted?
Is this a real thing?
Is it a private club thing?

They paint 'em where I play and I think it's mostly about pretension.

[Peter Sayegh]

Painted v. non-painted?
Is this a real thing?
Is it a private club thing?

They paint 'em where I play and I think it's mostly about pretension.


Thanks Ken. [pretentious] was the word I was avoiding.

I think one of Sean A's course tours included a photo of cups with the club logo imprinted within. I thought that was very cool and the color differential could afford some advantage. Surely, they can't be painted often?!

[Thomas Dai]

It's just another example of televised tournament golf adding unnecessary cost and hassle to the real game.

My sentiments exactly.
I think Tepper is right, too

+1
Unnecessary. First World issue.
Atb

[Rob Marshall]

Easier for me to see the brown dirt than white paint. I think it’s a waste of time and effort

[Kyle Harris]

It's more and more commonplace that it is required for state and local level championships and tournaments. Make of that what you will.

While there are costs involved, a skilled setup person will only add MAYBE 10 minutes total to the setup time using some of the hole paint products. That's an hour per week, so really a full work day is spent over the course of two months. There are much larget elephants to shoot in maintenance budgets than that, and if that one becomes the largest I'd accuse your budget concerns with being austere for the sake of austerity.

On ultradwarf bermudas, I've enough anecdotal evidence to suggest the paint does help preserve the edge. Nothing will prevent hamhandedness on the part of a golfer, however.


I was vehemently opposed to painting a few years ago. The above analysis has moved me into the ambivalent camp. Do you. There's bigger things to worry about and it keeps the stakeholders happy.


If it's a gripe, your problem is with the stakeholders, not the superintendent.

[Mike_Trenham]

My father who is a PGA pro and has always been a very good player for his age is 100% against painting the edges.  He is convinced that paint drys out the edge and increases lip outs.  My rebuttal is they do it at every Tour event and if it made it harder the players would revolt.


Anyone have information on paint causing lip outs or if this was maybe an issue in the past that has changed with new products/processes?  Thanks

[John Kavanaugh]

Why give up a benefit if you get nothing in return? The cost of golf will not be reduced and a man will lose his job.


What about creating a culture where average is acceptable? Might as well untuck your shirt and start drinking beer from a can.

[Rob Marshall]

My father who is a PGA pro and has always been a very good player for his age is 100% against painting the edges.  He is convinced that paint drys out the edge and increases lip outs.  My rebuttal is they do it at every Tour event and if it made it harder the players would revolt.


Anyone have information on paint causing lip outs or if this was maybe an issue in the past that has changed with new products/processes?  Thanks

Norman claimed he was “painted” when his put lipped out in the PGA playoff he lost to Zinger.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

While there are costs involved, a skilled setup person will only add MAYBE 10 minutes total to the setup time using some of the hole paint products. That's an hour per week, so really a full work day is spent over the course of two months. There are much larget elephants to shoot in maintenance budgets than that, and if that one becomes the largest I'd accuse your budget concerns with being austere for the sake of austerity.

You said the word "maybe" so I think you agree with me: I'll take the under. It adds probably 10-20 seconds per green. Slap the form in the hole, spiral the paint spray can around, done.

0.25 * 18 = 4.5 minutes per 18 holes. I'm not all that skilled and I've done it in < 10 minutes when I set up a course for a tournament a few times.

[Kyle Harris]

While there are costs involved, a skilled setup person will only add MAYBE 10 minutes total to the setup time using some of the hole paint products. That's an hour per week, so really a full work day is spent over the course of two months. There are much larget elephants to shoot in maintenance budgets than that, and if that one becomes the largest I'd accuse your budget concerns with being austere for the sake of austerity.

You said the word "maybe" so I think you agree with me: I'll take the under. It adds probably 10-20 seconds per green. Slap the form in the hole, spiral the paint spray can around, done.

0.25 * 18 = 4.5 minutes per 18 holes. I'm not all that skilled and I've done it in < 10 minutes when I set up a course for a tournament a few times.

The job is not done until the implements used are as clean as new. 


That includes the cups.

[John Kavanaugh]

While there are costs involved, a skilled setup person will only add MAYBE 10 minutes total to the setup time using some of the hole paint products. That's an hour per week, so really a full work day is spent over the course of two months. There are much larget elephants to shoot in maintenance budgets than that, and if that one becomes the largest I'd accuse your budget concerns with being austere for the sake of austerity.

You said the word "maybe" so I think you agree with me: I'll take the under. It adds probably 10-20 seconds per green. Slap the form in the hole, spiral the paint spray can around, done.

0.25 * 18 = 4.5 minutes per 18 holes. I'm not all that skilled and I've done it in < 10 minutes when I set up a course for a tournament a few times.

What makes me think that you spent the next 3 hrs and 50 minutes talking about it?

[John Kavanaugh]

I’d be fun to see the numbers a super would give on the cost of painting the holes each day. If raw truth is on the table anything less than 2 man hrs per day pushes reality. $100 per day is a value.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The job is not done until the implements used are as clean as new. 

That includes the cups.

Ha, I outsourced that. They were happy to not have to cut the holes that day, so the regular guy cleaned up. (Our event was on a Monday maintenance day, like many events at private clubs.)

What makes me think that you spent the next 3 hrs and 50 minutes talking about it?

Your utter lack of knowing me, if I had to guess.

[Jerry Kluger]

There is an article which was just published that proves that taking the flagstick out is the correct play 99.9% of the time.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_medium=email&utm_source=070223&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM41416&uuid=78b77d91-f398-43dc-bd71-c73b2e8f8876

[John Kavanaugh]

With the pin out I forget where the hole is. Seeing it in my peripheral vision helps.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

There is an article which was just published that proves that taking the flagstick out is the correct play 99.9% of the time.

A horribly written article that was discussed (debunked) years ago when it was published. The article wasn't just published, Jerry: it was published in 2019.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UK1wHSQh8gk - That putt was MOTORING.

Make rates are higher with the flagstick in (plus the ones that miss stay closer):



Weird, huh, how putts that would be going 10'10" and 11'9" past the hole are made with the one flagstick more often than putts that go 9'0" past the hole? And putts rolling 6'9" are basically going in any time? Does that strike anyone else as odd?

And… to get the "99.9%" thing, they're basically saying that most of the time, the ball doesn't even touch the flagstick:

Using PGA Tour statistics from 2018, on putts of more than 25 feet, the make percentage is 5.48 percent. So under our model, this very good PGA Tour putter is then only hitting the flagstick dead center a little more than one-fourth of those putts, or approximately 1.37 percent of the time.

It's a bad article with an attention-grabbing headline.

[Sean_A]

Painted v. non-painted?
Is this a real thing?
Is it a private club thing?

They paint 'em where I play and I think it's mostly about pretension.


Thanks Ken. [pretentious] was the word I was avoiding.

I think one of Sean A's course tours included a photo of cups with the club logo imprinted within. I thought that was very cool and the color differential could afford some advantage. Surely, they can't be painted often?!

Maybe I am wrong, but I assumed these were plastic and painting them wouldn't be done.

Are folks talking about painting the soil above the cup? If so I am not sure I have seen that. If not, seems weird to paint a cup below the surface of the ground.

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Maybe I am wrong, but I assumed these were plastic and painting them wouldn't be done.

Are folks talking about painting the soil above the cup? If so I am not sure I have seen that. If not, seems weird to paint a cup below the surface of the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6H3d8g5DBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkUUQO5k1xc