Crossover Holes

[Ian Cox]

Of the many courses that I have played (most rank lists are close to completion, though that was never an aim); Royal Porthcawl has a crossover on 1 & 18, I see it as a charm and I’m yet to be convinced that there is a finer course in GB&I.
Great thread, Ian

[Matt Schoolfield]

Now that you mention it, I guess there is some amount of survivor's bias in everyone thinking crossovers are safe!

A very good point. I'm sure there is a scholarly article to be written on this. If one could compile layouts of removed crossovers and the compare them to existing holes, we may be able to learn something interesting on when and how players are most likely to be struck.

[Tom_Doak]

If one could compile layouts of removed crossovers and the compare them to existing holes, we may be able to learn something interesting on when and how players are most likely to be struck.

In court, I would object that you have assumed facts not in evidence.  For instance, I wonder if there are any more mishaps at the crossover on 7 & 11 of The Old Course than there are on its many other conflicting holes?  It may be that players pay more attention at the crossover than they do elsewhere.


There is a note in the minutes of the R & A, sometime back in the late 19th century, about the safety of The Old Course before it was widened to the present double fairways.  The club captain noted that many players were starting to complain that the course was dangerous.  He dismissed the complaint as nonsense:  "I myself have only been hit three times this season." 

[Paul Jones]

Would Ballybunion 18th hole be considered a crossover since you hit over the 17th green?

[Michael Tamburrini]

The 15th and 16th at Murcar have a wonderfully effective crossover.


Less effective (although a reasonably picturesque downhill par 3), the 18th at Lochwinnoch in western Scotland crosses the 2nd and 3rd fairways. Which can be an issue if you’re standing on the tee and someone playing the 2nd forgets to check the 18th tee and continues wandering across, oblivious.

[Ken Moum]

If one could compile layouts of removed crossovers and the compare them to existing holes, we may be able to learn something interesting on when and how players are most likely to be struck.

In court, I would object that you have assumed facts not in evidence.  For instance, I wonder if there are any more mishaps at the crossover on 7 & 11 of The Old Course than there are on its many other conflicting holes?  It may be that players pay more attention at the crossover than they do elsewhere.


There is a note in the minutes of the R & A, sometime back in the late 19th century, about the safety of The Old Course before it was widened to the present double fairways.  The club captain noted that many players were starting to complain that the course was dangerous.  He dismissed the complaint as nonsense:  "I myself have only been hit three times this season." 

I can attest, a bit. The only time I ever got hit while playing was on The Old Course, looking for an errant tee ball on 15 IIRC. (Got hit once while working on the greens crew at my home course.)

[Ben Stephens]

There will always be some element of danger in this situation. My second play at Royal West Norfolk almost came to an end on the first hole when a golfer coming up 18 shanked a ball that whizzed past my nose, missing it by a quarter inch.

Now that you mention it, I guess there is some amount of survivor's bias in everyone thinking crossovers are safe!

There's always an element of danger if you go on a golf course whether it is crossover holes or not. Brancaster 1st and 18th is quite wide (wider than you think) however it has more visibility than a tight tree lined course i have been nearly hit more often when I can't see a player playing an adjoining fairway.

[John Challenger]

At Old Moray GC, there is an intersection between Hole 1 green and Hole 17 green. To get to Hole 2 tee and Hole 18 tee, which sit on the same strip of ground heading opposite directions, the golfer heads up to the wall along the course's southern border. Old Moray New Hole 1 tee sits in there somewhere too. Works beautifully.

[Philippe Binette]

You see plenty of "drive over the back part of the last green" holes on the Links courses in the uk.., which could qualify of crossover


One thing i noticed, links golf being played firm and fast, you rarely carry your approach to the back half of the green's..


So it's much safer to be close to the back of the green since the worst that could happen is to get hit by a ball after 2-3 bounces

[Matt Schoolfield]

In court, I would object that you have assumed facts not in evidence.  For instance, I wonder if there are any more mishaps at the crossover on 7 & 11 of The Old Course than there are on its many other conflicting holes?  It may be that players pay more attention at the crossover than they do elsewhere.

I know this is meant to be light/humorous, but I still think a study would be helpful.

The point of any academic approach would be to find whether there are causal factors. If survivorship bias exists, it might be obvious, though it might also be counter-intuitive. With an unbelievable 40,000 player ending up in the emergency room per year, most being struck by golf balls (source: Golf Digest), the issue is worth study.

I have for some time advocated that the best way to nerf the golf ball is by reducing it's mass/density. Feathery's used to float, which means significantly lower density than today, thus significantly less harmful impacts. Multiple impacts a season in the 19th century was probably something that wasn't a big deal.

[Ken Fry]

TPC River Highlands is in the news after Keegan Bradley's Traveler's win and Rory's comments.
The original Pete Dye design had a crossover where the 16th tee shot crossed over between the 17th tee and fairway.  A completely different angle than the current routing done by Bobby Weed.
Ken

[Tom_Doak]

TPC River Highlands is in the news after Keegan Bradley's Traveler's win and Rory's comments.
The original Pete Dye design had a crossover where the 16th tee shot crossed over between the 17th tee and fairway.  A completely different angle than the current routing done by Bobby Weed.
Ken

I was working for Mr. Dye back then, and met him and Commissioner Beman in Hartford to do a walk-through of the course and make plans for potential changes.


When we got to 16 and 17, Pete related the story that he used to play a club in Indianapolis that used the same tee for two holes . . . essentially, you could hit a tee shot to 16 and to 17, go down and putt out, and then head to 17 fairway instead of using the crossover.  He said the course in Indy was that way for a long time, and then people started stealing golf balls from the group behind them, and they had to give it up.


That would have been impossible to do on Tour under the Rules of Golf because you can only have one ball in play at a time, but it was an entirely practical solution to a problem.


FWIW, Pete had wanted to put a tee for 17 behind 16 green, but that created a greater traffic problem than walking up the hill and playing across 16, so he opted for the latter solution.

[Niall C]

One thing i noticed, links golf being played firm and fast, you rarely carry your approach to the back half of the green's..


So it's much safer to be close to the back of the green since the worst that could happen is to get hit by a ball after 2-3 bounces

Philippe


I think I'm right in saying that in 17th and 18th century naval battles they aimed below the waterline on the basis that the cannon ball would skip off the water and hit the target ship. Apparently it did more damage that way than hitting the ship full on.


Whatever the truth of that a ball landing on a hard running links and hitting you after the first or second bounce is still going to hurt.


Niall

[Niall C]

At Old Moray GC, there is an intersection between Hole 1 green and Hole 17 green. To get to Hole 2 tee and Hole 18 tee, which sit on the same strip of ground heading opposite directions, the golfer heads up to the wall along the course's southern border. Old Moray New Hole 1 tee sits in there somewhere too. Works beautifully.

John


There are no crossovers on the opening and closing holes at Moray Old and New although players do have to walk behind greens to get to the next tee. The only crossover that I can think of is on the 9th hole Old (just after you come back over the road) where a par 3 from the New plays directly across the hole about 50 or 60 yards in front of the tee.


Niall

[ward peyronnin]

The Sacred Nine No 6 and it works. Luv it.

[Stewart Abramson]

No one has mentioned the tee shot on the fifth hole at Nairn, which has to fly over the fourth green





Nairn #5 tee shot  over #4 green

[Kevin Stark]

If memory serves, there is a hole on the back nine at Portsalon where you hit over the green of the par 3 you just played.

[Ally Mcintosh]

That is 14,15 Kevin. Similar in Doonbeg and quite a few other places.


Just to reiterate, there are different levels of issue with crossovers: Hitting over the previous hole’s green is rarely ever a pace of play or safety issue. The following group will not have reached the green by the time the leading group tees off at the next hole. And more often than not, there is a safe exit path from the tees to the fairway well behind the previous green…. That is a very different scenario to fairways crossing at landing zones.

[D_Malley]

How many are the result of original design or thought and how many are the result of subsequent lengthening with no other options?


The hole that got me thinking of this is the 9th/10th at Merion West. No crossover, but the only way to lengthen 10 would be to have one somewhat.

Kyle,
Being very familar with Merion West, having basically grown up playing there.
I'm curious where you would put a new back tee for #10?

[Kyle Harris]

How many are the result of original design or thought and how many are the result of subsequent lengthening with no other options?


The hole that got me thinking of this is the 9th/10th at Merion West. No crossover, but the only way to lengthen 10 would be to have one somewhat.

Kyle,
Being very familar with Merion West, having basically grown up playing there.
I'm curious where you would put a new back tee for #10?

I wouldn't, it was just the first hole that came to mind when thinking about how Crossover shots came to be in routings that already existed.

That sort of configuration can lend itself to a crossover shot if, and only if, the hole was deemed to need more length.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Just played at dismal river red and felt like the 4th hole middle tee has you hitting right over the 3rd green.  Looking at the aerial and it doesn't appear like it actually does play over the green.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Isn’t the back tee on 9 at Bel Air played over the 8th green?
  Also, at Rolling Green you must cross in front of the 12th tee to get to the 9th tee. This isn’t a problem for members, who know where to go and to pay attention. For first timers, it can be dangerous because the 12th tee is quite blind from the 8th green, so if one doesn’t know any better, it’s pretty easy to walk in front of a tee shot being hit off 12. Also, first timers can mistake the 12th tee for the 9th.

[Sean_A]

It's not particularly dangerous because folks know, but the TOC 7/11 crossover can slow the game down a ton.

Ciao

[James Bennett]

Alwoodley 3rd tee shot plays over the 16th fairway about 150 metres from the 16th tee.
A few trees but IIRC blindness isn't an issue.
It would be a dub who needed to play from the 16th fairway when playing the 3rd.


James B