8,100 yards!

[Rick Phelps]

Robert:  Good question.  200 yards is a bit extreme, but there are a number of holes where the distance from the back tee to the front tee is 165 yards or so.  Generally speaking, the holes are designed to require a tee shot carry distance of 280 plus in order to take advantage of the strategic options from the back tee.  In other words, the risk/reward situations that require a carry, have the carry at approximately that distance.  Of course, I am generalizing a bit because there are other options available too, but they aren't as affected by length as the few holes that I am referring to.

There are actually two par 4's that, given the right wind conditions, could be reachable from even the back tee.  Both require rather long carries, but if the course plays as firm and fast as I would like, the ball could reach the front of the green if shaped properly (one is L to R, the other is R to L).

The landing areas are generally wide through about the 260 range (it's a fairly windy site).  Some, depending on whether you choose to carry a hazard, will then widen back out again at about 300 plus.  Again, in general, the prime position in each fairway is located about 300-320 off the back tee.

Even in the "narrow" areas, the fairways are still 30 yards wide.  I didn't want redanman to bitch about not being able to hit driver in Colorado anymore!!  However, the angles into the greens will still put a bit of a premium on accuracy, even at 320 off the tee.

RP

[ian]

Rick,

"Ian, I am a bit disappointed that you, as a golf course architect, can dismiss a golf course's merit without having seen it."

I'm not dismissing your course. This is all about yardage. This was the first 8,000+ yard course that I had heard of, as Robert mentioned there are many others. I also appreciate, as you stated, there is some intentions on hosting events, that does have an influence on what you need to build.

This thread is my own personal beef with the direction of golf and the reaction of architects to this ever expanding distance. I'm very sorry if I offended you, because that was not my intention. My intention was to point out "where is this going to end". Who is this going to hurt. I personally think the answer is us, architects. As we go longer and more expensive because of this, we will drive up the cost of golf. Public golf is beginning to wane due to price pressure, new golf is becoming very expensive due to the large tracts of land required.

Rick, this has nothing to do with your golf course, and everything to do with yardage. You have an excellent reputation and I'm know you design great golf courses. You mentioned it wasn't easy making the transition from back tees to front tees, and that is a huge concern for me.

This is where I'm coming from: I visited Pine Valley, Merion and Huntingdon Valley this year. They are all under 7,000, and yet they remain wonderfully difficult tests of golf.

[Rick Phelps]

Ian,

Don't worry about offending me.  You didn't.  I pretty much knew where you were coming from -- and I don't disagree with you.  However, this project was a bit of a "special circumstance" course.  Happy Holidays!

[RJ_Daley]

Hi Rick, good to see you dropping in.  Can you describe the (4)? par 3s in terms of what kind of club variation you would challenge the very good player and then the middle handicap fellow of about 10-15.  I realise the limitation of this question, but just in terms of describing each tee shot as for example, a long yardage-perhaps low running flat iron approach, a long yardage fairway metal full throttle, a shortish perhaps lofted iron, ect.  What sort of greens and surrounds do you have?  Is there much contour and are there uniform collars and roughs, or are there some collar or fairway mowed surrounds and chipping areas?  Good Luck with the your newest effort.

[A_Clay_Man]

Rick-I was just thinking about special circumstances and hoped it was more due to the land and the opportunities it gave you and the course just ended up at 8100. Versus having to qwell some appetite for a bigger number because they're a professional program.

In all honesty 8100 sounds short considering the elevation and abilities of the new breed.  

p.s. Here's 15 cents, I wanna spring for Brad and Doug. I need to be in Denver on the 7th of March, so if  you guys wanna  save Rick from having to explain everything twice, we can hook-up.

Any day around the 7th is good for me. Just not on the 7th.

[Rick Phelps]

RJ:  I'll give it a go!

The par 3's are numbers 4, 8, 14, and 17 respectively.

Number 4 is slightly uphill, prevailing wind left to right in summer, head-on the rest of the time.  190 from the back, but still about 180 from the #3 tee, which is where I anticipate most of the male golfers will play from (6900 yards total from there).  The right half of the green is protected by two relatively deep bunkers (8-10 feet below putting surface) but there is a bail-out at fairway height behind the green on the right.  Keep in mind again, though, that for the long man, this is probably a 7-iron at this altitude!  The #3 tee has a slightly easier angle to avoid the bunkers and a steep bank to the back left to allow a billiard-type shot to the back hole locations.

Number 8 is a 235 yard hole from the back tee (4 iron for the long boys), with prevailing wind right to left in the summer and behind at other times.  Probably the toughest par 3 on the course for the back tee users.  The green is fairly deep with a 5 foot deep grass hollow on the left (at fairway height) and a lake on the right.  There will be a very challenging hole location on the right in a lobe that is protected by bunkers front and rear and water right.  There is a ridge in the green that will feed a running ball down to the right hole location if executed perfectly.  This hole plays from 165 from the #3 tee, so it really has completely different shot values for the "average" joe.  Probably a 7-iron for most of the 10-15 handicappers that I play with.

Number 14 plays the same direction as #8, but favors more of a right to left shot.  It's 250 from the back and 200 from the #3 tee.  Likely a 2-iron or fairway metal for most.  The front of the green is deceptively open, but there is a chipping area along the left side and bunker on the right.  The green bends left around the hollow, so a back left location will be challenging. There is a large waste bunker down the right side, which causes the deception, but in reality it ends at least 20 yards short of the green so there is ample room to run a ball onto the front.

Number 17 plays downwind in summer and left to right wind at other times.  It's 210 from the back, 170 from the #2 tee and 160 from the #3 tee.  It's actually a tougher hole from the #2 tee due to more carry over water and bunker to find the green.  Subtle bail out fairway left front of the green and another chipping area behind.  Unfortunately, the roadslope behind this green detracts a bit.  Hopefully, in time, it will be softened by vegetation.

As for the greens in general, I would consider most of them to be moderately contoured.  One or two have significant contour, though.  All of them will have random collar widths and lots of chipping areas/hollows at fairway height.  Many have false fronts or rolled edges feeding into the hollows.  However, there are also a number of ridges and banks that will be mowed to allow a billiard shot too.  Variety!!!

[ian]

Redanman,

Rick and I exchanged e-mails about altitude, and I must admit, the increase in length due to altitude was much higher than I would have expected. I have a better understanding of why we have got to 8,100 yards.

I still fell the same way about length, I hate where we seem to be heading. It seems like power has become so much more important than shot-making. Thinking about it, is shotmaking dead (or soon to be dead) with the modern game?

[A_Clay_Man]

Ian- While I have learned alot since my first test at altitiude, the thrill of seeing your ball take off in those usually mountainous surroundings, with it's obvious gargantuan distance, is a pretty cool feeling. So cool, that I have a theory about Colorado golfers having more confidence because of it, which translates into bigger and better swings at the ball. Before anybody tells me thats the dumbest thing they have ever heard, I live 45 minutes from CO. and many come here to golf. Believe me, every Coloradoan hits minimum two clubs less than I do. As eveidenced by Ricks mention of his buddies 7 iron from 190 and they are 15 handicappers. This distance thing will be hard to curtail but I agree that it is on the onus of the architect to design the solutions. My take on a path to a solution would be to study the under valued par 3's. This seems like a good a place as any since length is the issue and going bigger may not always be doable.