Too many tee boxes?

[Paul Jones]

Should you be able to play from your favorite yardage?  Some golf courses do not have tee markers, some have only 2 tee markers and some require everyone to play the same set of tees on certain days - all of these are in the minority in the US.


1 architect fussed about a club adding an additional set of combo tees, stating that taking away from the variety of hole lengths that he designed.


What is your preference?  Why do most courses have so many sets of tees?


Wouldn't it speed up play if only have at most 3, preferably 0?  (i.e. 6800, 6000, and 5200 yards) - I would guess more golfers would play 1 more shorter and speed up play, but just guessing...

[David Wuthrich]

Paul,


I think people like choices, so while it would speed up play, it might not be as enjoyable for them.  I play with one long hitter who if he doesn't play a course at least 7,200 yards, he is bored because he can not play his game and hit all of his clubs.

[Paul Jones]

Paul,


I think people like choices, so while it would speed up play, it might not be as enjoyable for them.  I play with one long hitter who if he doesn't play a course at least 7,200 yards, he is bored because he can not play his game and hit all of his clubs.

Crazy if he won't play from anything less than 7200 yards, most courses are not even that long from the tips.  Does he ever travel outside the US?

[Charlie Goerges]

I think people like choices,

Generally I'd agree with this, but more and more (in life and commerce), it feels like we get more choices in lieu of actual quality. In food, I'm often just asking the waiter/waitress what they recommend. And if I'm going to play somewhere with a member/regular, I just want them to tell me where we should play from.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,


Statistically, we can group golfers into 6 or 7 basic tee shot lengths, i.e., (and rounded a bit) centered in 20-30 yard groups around about 150, 180, 216, 237, 258, and 290+ (forgetting those few supermen on the pro and college ranks) Given that the 290+ group makes up about 0.1% of players, those tees could be just big enough to stand on. 


So, there is always the design decision of whether you want to use tee sets to design holes around those tee shot yardages to make the course most fun for everyone. (of course, there are many theories on what that actually means, as well)  Most courses seem to like only 4 or 5 tees, and many use combo tees to get to the yardages their players prefer.

[Paul Jones]

and many use combo tees to get to the yardages their players prefer.

This was the point that the architect was making... when a club adds combo tees it removes the variety in length where most par 4s play around the same yardage.


I would like to see no tee markers but seems that I am in the minority.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,


I agree.  In most cases, the pro will use the shorter tee on long holes and the longer tee on short holes, leading to far too similar hole lengths.  I don't know who the gca you are referring to is, but I tend to agree.  We don't tend to get into the creation of blended tees, and I always preferred at least 5 physical tees (with some combined, and in other cases due to topo, there may be 6 or7 tee pods, with two nominally devoted to the main tee, etc.).  I think most of us would probably add a fee to the master plan for studying that, LOL.  It could really take several days of deep thought to really make those good.

[Joe Hancock]

I started a thread about topography dictating the “comfortable” numbers of tees, but that’s more of a technical/ artistic angle on the topic. This topic is purely about the human element.

[Sean_A]

I keep bringing up the concept of walking. Once there are a load of tees walking is less appealing because it becomes difficult to design a short walk between greens and tees for all. Somebody is going suffer at least sometimes unless the course is mainly designed for a particular set of tees. I don't think there is a good solution for mega tees spreading 2000 yards of difference and walking. My preference is for archies to design to tighter demographics instead of trying to please everyone as they ride carts.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Consideration of forced carries is important. And not just forced carries from the tee but ones later on in the hole too. Forced carries are no fun for the lessor hitter and looking for a ball that hasn’t crossed one slows down play.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like the idea of 3 sets with two combos that are given their own card (i.e. not left up to the individual golfer to equalise everything so variety can still be achieved).

[Sean_A]

Consideration of forced carries is important. And not just forced carries from the tee but ones later on in the hole too. Forced carries are no fun for the lessor hitter and looking for a ball that hasn’t crossed one slows down play.
Atb

I don't think longer forced carries should be avoided, they are excellent opportunities to create back tees. To me, back tees should be so far back that hardly anyone uses them. For instance, a set at say 6300 and 7100. The stark contrast will help keep the no hopers away.   Most of the difference can come at relatively few holes with harsh back tees. There is no need to create a steady difference for 18 holes. 


Ciao

[Charlie Goerges]

Consideration of forced carries is important. And not just forced carries from the tee but ones later on in the hole too. Forced carries are no fun for the lessor hitter and looking for a ball that hasn’t crossed one slows down play.
Atb

I don't think longer forced carries should be avoided, they are excellent opportunities to create back tees. To me, back tees should be so far back that hardly anyone uses them. For instance, a set at say 6300 and 7100. The stark contrast will help keep the no hopers away.   Most of the difference can come at relatively few holes with harsh back tees. There is no need to create a steady difference for 18 holes. 


Ciao

This seems reasonable, but are we sure there aren't a significant number (maybe even a majority) of players who would choose the long tees for lack of a 6600-ish yard choice. I worry about that and the resulting slowdown in speed. maybe if the choice was between 6300 and (a perhaps fictional) 8500?

[Wade Whitehead]

The switch from players deciding tee locations to someone else (e.g. pro or superintendent) was a huge one.

As we've discussed, there are modern courses (see: Ballyneal) that don't put out markers.

When did courses decide to decide?

When did they start putting out tee markers, and were they at any point just suggestions?

When did most players start using them all the time?

WW

[Ally Mcintosh]

Consideration of forced carries is important. And not just forced carries from the tee but ones later on in the hole too. Forced carries are no fun for the lessor hitter and looking for a ball that hasn’t crossed one slows down play.
Atb

I don't think longer forced carries should be avoided, they are excellent opportunities to create back tees. To me, back tees should be so far back that hardly anyone uses them. For instance, a set at say 6300 and 7100. The stark contrast will help keep the no hopers away.   Most of the difference can come at relatively few holes with harsh back tees. There is no need to create a steady difference for 18 holes. 


Ciao

This seems reasonable, but are we sure there aren't a significant number (maybe even a majority) of players who would choose the long tees for lack of a 6600-ish yard choice. I worry about that and the resulting slowdown in speed. maybe if the choice was between 6300 and (a perhaps fictional) 8500?

There’s a good chunk of golfers that like the 6,600 yard distance.


But in a completely hypothetical situation, you could set up a course with 7,100 yards, 6,200 yards and 5,000 yards with a combo set at 6,650 and 5,750.


Having only three teeing areas is more attractive but they would need to have exponentially larger footprints to spread wear (again on a hypothetical course with 30,000+ rounds).

[Charlie Goerges]

Consideration of forced carries is important. And not just forced carries from the tee but ones later on in the hole too. Forced carries are no fun for the lessor hitter and looking for a ball that hasn’t crossed one slows down play.
Atb

I don't think longer forced carries should be avoided, they are excellent opportunities to create back tees. To me, back tees should be so far back that hardly anyone uses them. For instance, a set at say 6300 and 7100. The stark contrast will help keep the no hopers away.   Most of the difference can come at relatively few holes with harsh back tees. There is no need to create a steady difference for 18 holes. 


Ciao

This seems reasonable, but are we sure there aren't a significant number (maybe even a majority) of players who would choose the long tees for lack of a 6600-ish yard choice. I worry about that and the resulting slowdown in speed. maybe if the choice was between 6300 and (a perhaps fictional) 8500?

There’s a good chunk of golfers that like the 6,600 yard distance.


But in a completely hypothetical situation, you could set up a course with 7,100 yards, 6,200 yards and 5,000 yards with a combo set at 6,650 and 5,750.


Having only three teeing areas is more attractive but they would need to have exponentially larger footprints to spread wear (again on a hypothetical course with 30,000+ rounds).

Absolutely combo tees make the most sense from a logical perspective. I just worry about the strength of most golfers logic muscles.

[Carl Johnson]

Never a long hitter, at 81 I'm shorter than ever (surprised?).  From my standpoint it makes sense to have different sets of tees to suit different skill/distance levels off the tee.  We have four basic sets and three combos, for a total of seven.  It seems to work.  I've never heard a complaint that we have too many tees.  (P.S., in addition, we have two sets of even more forward "family tees" marked with little plaques in the fairways.)  On the other hand, if a couple of sets were the only option, I'd figure out how to live with that.

[Tim Martin]

I like the idea of 3 sets with two combos that are given their own card (i.e. not left up to the individual golfer to equalise everything so variety can still be achieved).

Ally-I like having a separate card for the combo tees as it makes it easier to keep track of where to play from on each hole. Three sets and two combos should achieve a nice balance where everyone can find a yardage that is commensurate with their ability and allows them to have fun. I remember guys playing all the threes and fives back and the fours from the whites(or designated holes) long before there were any rated “combo tees”.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like the idea of 3 sets with two combos that are given their own card (i.e. not left up to the individual golfer to equalise everything so variety can still be achieved).

Ally-I like having a separate card for the combo tees as it makes it easier to keep track of where to play from on each hole. Three sets and two combos should achieve a nice balance where everyone can find a yardage that is commensurate with their ability and allows them to have fun. I remember guys playing all the threes and fives back and the fours from the whites(or designated holes) long before there were any rated “combo tees”.

As well as the card, you can also use a name instead of a colour for the combo: For instance, have your three main tees as white, yellow, red. Have one combo set named “shamrock” so you see a shamrock pictured on some white tees, some yellow tees. Same idea with the other combo with some yellow tees, some red tees.


If that hasn’t been done anywhere, remember whose idea it was when someone steals it! I’ll try and get there first!

[Tim Martin]

I like the idea of 3 sets with two combos that are given their own card (i.e. not left up to the individual golfer to equalise everything so variety can still be achieved).

Ally-I like having a separate card for the combo tees as it makes it easier to keep track of where to play from on each hole. Three sets and two combos should achieve a nice balance where everyone can find a yardage that is commensurate with their ability and allows them to have fun. I remember guys playing all the threes and fives back and the fours from the whites(or designated holes) long before there were any rated “combo tees”.

As well as the card, you can also use a name instead of a colour for the combo: For instance, have your three main tees as white, yellow, red. Have one combo set named “shamrock” so you see a shamrock pictured on some white tees, some yellow tees. Same idea with the other combo with some yellow tees, some red tees.


If that hasn’t been done anywhere, remember whose idea it was when someone steals it! I’ll try and get there first!

Duly noted

[Mark_Fine]

The USGA did a comprehensive study of golfers and teeing distances.  One of the conclusions was that a large percentage of golfers would benefit and have more fun if the average total 18 hole yardage was under 4000 yards for most courses.  5000 yards is way too long for most forward tee players. 

[Thomas Dai]

Worth bearing in mind that the average men’s hcp is approx 15 and for ladies it’s approx 30. Also worth bearing in mind that folks play golf from approx age 5 to approx age 90.
For an appreciation of how a large proportion of golfers really play go watch lessor player handicap ladies and/or lessor player seniors events and see where they hit their shots, especially their tee shots. Or even better go play with a few higher hcp or more elderly ladies or a few senior men. And don’t take their word on distances, especially the men, there’s ego and vanity involved, best watch with your own eyes …. and then help them find their balls that haven’t carried over forced carries or are in manicured rough just off the fairways, which incidentally you’ll likely watch them struggle to hit decent shots out of.
atb

[Tom_Doak]

For Sedge Valley, some holes have five tees and some have just two, but I think it has been decided that we will only have two sets of tee markers for daily play.  The greenskeepers are the happiest people with this result.  Trying to put out five different sets of markers every day is a grind.

[Paul Jones]

I am also surprised more courses do not use the same tee box, but a different par for the hole: 480 Yards - Par 5 from the white and Par 4 from the blue tees.  Both blue and white or 1 blue and 1 white tee markers could be used.


The Masters has only 2 sets of tees, but quite a few of the tee boxes are very long and yardage can vary quite a bit from the front of the tee box to the back.  There is a big yardage difference: Member Tees: 6365, Masters Tees: 7545.

[Tom_Doak]

The Masters has only 2 sets of tees, but quite a few of the tee boxes are very long and yardage can vary quite a bit from the front of the tee box to the back.  There is a big yardage difference: Member Tees: 6365, Masters Tees: 7545.

Paul:


I'm pretty sure The Masters makes everyone play the same tees  ;-)


But thanks for reminding that Augusta National uses only two sets.  Yes, the tees are pretty big so they can adjust the yardage up or down on a given day . . . as most other courses do naturally, to spread out wear.  One of the problems with five sets of tees is that they come with the expectation that they will always be spaced apart to equalize different classes of players, which gives little flexibility in moving them around when the main tee gets worn out.  [I am told that despite the five-tee setup on other Sand Valley courses, 70% of the golf is played from one set of markers.]