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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2023, 10:07:41 AM »
Question … I played 5 holes last night on my own. I played from different colour tee markers. I didn’t putt out on every hole.
Should I have submitted the score?
Genuinely curious to know.
Atb
You played less than 7 holes by yourself on an unrated golf course.  So there is nothing to post, good or bad.  Not putting out, at least in this case, is irrelevant.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2023, 12:38:58 PM »
It is a weird thread on this site that keeps me coming back to the conclusion that I agree with Erik.  But on this thread, he's spot on.


Those who argue for a handicap system (and I note they're mostly better players) obviously don't understand statistics.  If the system reflected average ability, rather than potential, or peak, then it would be a disaster in competition.  It's inevitable that higher handicaps have higher standard deviation of score.  Lower handicap players have lower standard deviations.  An inevitable result of this is that the differential between handicap and "average" gets greater as you get worse.  For scratch players, I imagine that the differential is quite low. 


Which means that high handicappers far more frequently score well below average (and, equally, well above average).  Club handicap competitions would nearly always be won by higher handicappers.  Low markers complain about that already.  Imagine what would happen if the system reflected average scores!


The majority already are won by the higher handicappers..............
Data?
Fwiw, I have NOT found this to be true at the clubs I've belonged to.  All of the noise surrounding the handicap system is made by low indexes who lose to higher indexes in net competitions, but noise does not equal significance.


A.G.-I agree in that most clubs have both a net and gross competition in the majority of their tournaments. There are some all net events for sure but players have the option to pass if they don’t like the format. A high handicapper has a lower chance of winning gross than a low digit has of winning the net. I usually see the higher handicappers griping about the same bandits winning the net more than the low digit guys.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2023, 01:09:36 PM »
If posting a casual score the amount of strokes shouldn’t exceed the ESC calculation. For someone that can’t take more than double bogey on a par four that player should pick up at that point or even better after they miss their putt for bogey. Obviously if you need to hole out for a medal score or a wager is impacted then that changes the scenario.
There's no such thing as ESC anymore. Everyone's max score is net double bogey (NDB).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2023, 01:52:31 PM »
 8)  eric,  quit confusing folks with reality...


OBTW how long have you kept your anti-cap? 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2023, 02:27:48 PM »
If posting a casual score the amount of strokes shouldn’t exceed the ESC calculation. For someone that can’t take more than double bogey on a par four that player should pick up at that point or even better after they miss their putt for bogey. Obviously if you need to hole out for a medal score or a wager is impacted then that changes the scenario.
There's no such thing as ESC anymore. Everyone's max score is net double bogey (NDB).


Thanks for the heads up as I was unaware that was changed. I see it happened in 2020 so I guess I should pay more attention. ::)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 02:29:51 PM by Tim Martin »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2023, 03:28:43 PM »
OBTW how long have you kept your anti-cap?
At least 20 years. I wrote software called "Scorecard" almost that long ago and that was one of the features - it would keep your anti-handicap (worst 10 of your last 20 x 0.96).

I play a lot of boring golf… so my good rounds and bad rounds are pretty close to each other, even for a 1 to +3 handicap (depending on how much I'm playing).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2023, 03:59:50 PM »
It is a weird thread on this site that keeps me coming back to the conclusion that I agree with Erik.  But on this thread, he's spot on.


Those who argue for a handicap system (and I note they're mostly better players) obviously don't understand statistics.  If the system reflected average ability, rather than potential, or peak, then it would be a disaster in competition.  It's inevitable that higher handicaps have higher standard deviation of score.  Lower handicap players have lower standard deviations.  An inevitable result of this is that the differential between handicap and "average" gets greater as you get worse.  For scratch players, I imagine that the differential is quite low. 


Which means that high handicappers far more frequently score well below average (and, equally, well above average).  Club handicap competitions would nearly always be won by higher handicappers.  Low markers complain about that already.  Imagine what would happen if the system reflected average scores!


The majority already are won by the higher handicappers..............
Data?
Fwiw, I have NOT found this to be true at the clubs I've belonged to.  All of the noise surrounding the handicap system is made by low indexes who lose to higher indexes in net competitions, but noise does not equal significance.


A.G.-I agree in that most clubs have both a net and gross competition in the majority of their tournaments. There are some all net events for sure but players have the option to pass if they don’t like the format. A high handicapper has a lower chance of winning gross than a low digit has of winning the net. I usually see the higher handicappers griping about the same bandits winning the net more than the low digit guys.
I will say that, in my experience, both high and low indexes have a tendency to think that the other group is favored, which probably means the system is working the way it is intended to work. 

That said, I think low indexes are MUCH more likely to complain when they lose to a high cap in a net event than the other way around.  I was MGA president at a golf-only club for a couple of years, running a lot of net events.  There were constant complaints from the low index guys when they lost, much moreso than the other way around.  I finally told several low index guys who were constant complainers that they probably should consider just not playing in net events if losing to lesser players bothered them that much, since the whole purpose of the system is to allow golfers of different skill levels to compete against each other.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: handicap system (ot)
« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2023, 08:39:10 PM »
Higher handicappers tend to win more often when:
  • 100% of handicaps are given.
  • They outnumber the lower handicap players.
This is why some tournaments are done at 80 or 85% handicaps, and why some events are flighted - to keep the 15s who can, on occasion, shoot 5 below their index more readily than a 2 handicap can.

The odds of a higher handicap doing it are much lower than a low handicap player doing it.


Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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