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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2023, 10:17:29 PM »
From 1987-1999, 8 of the 13 US Open winners ranked outside the top 100 in Driving Distance on the PGA Tour. Since then, from 2000-2022, Only 3 US Open winners ranked outside the top 100.
Better players also tend to be longer hitters.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2023, 10:36:05 PM »
Speaking of better players, that is one high-quality leaderboard.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2023, 11:23:01 PM »
Hard to hear the criticism over the roars accompanying exciting play on an intriguing course!
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2023, 12:16:39 AM »
It's 9:30 pm in Scotland and I am pretty jet lagged after a long day of work, so I can't answer you fully, but basically, I don't understand why you care what the winning score is in a tournament, or why I am supposed to care, since I don't build golf courses for professional tournaments?

Thick rough and trees never "worked fine", for anybody apart from very good players.  For the other 90% it was an ordeal.

And when the hell has golf architecture NOT encouraged players to hit the ball further?  Length with a reasonable amount of accuracy was just as important to Bobby Jones's success as to Jack Nicklaus's . . . arguably, it was MORE important back in the day when it meant the difference between a 4-iron approach and a 7-iron.

From 1987-1999, 8 of the 13 US Open winners ranked outside the top 100 in Driving Distance on the PGA Tour. Since then, from 2000-2022, Only 3 US Open winners ranked outside the top 100.

The US Open didn't always reward length, But it did reward great play. The shorter players winning these events were some of the best players we have ever seen.  Hale Irwin won 21 times on the PGA tour.  Curtis Strange won 17.  Corey Pavin won 15 times.  The only active players on the tour with more wins are Phil, DJ, and Rory.

From 2016-2022, 6 of the 7 US Open winners have ranked in the top 20 in driving distance. Over the preceding 29 US Opens, There were only 5 who ranked in the top 20.

We're currently in an unprecedented time for the US Open, as it now so clearly favors length. Is it a coincidence that during this time, the USGA is also widening fairways and shortening rough, or are they related?

This trend is not unique to the US Open, the story is the same for the Masters and PGA Championship as well. From 1987-1996, Players who ranked outside the top 100 won 19 of 30. Since then, only a handful have done it.

Earlier this spring Mark Broadie published a white paper where he examined the impact of distance change in professional golf. Examining data from 2004-2022 Broadie found that over the past 2 decades Driving increased from only a ~19% contribution to a 28% contribution towards scoring, while Approach play decreased from ~41% to a 36% contribution. Driving was the only category to increase in contribution to scoring. If the trend continues, will become the most dominant contributor to scoring in less than 10 years.

So yes, the game has changed.  Length and power are much more important than they used to be.

Now we all know some courses favor certain types of players.  Some are approach play courses.  Some are short game courses.  Some are accuracy courses.  And some are bomber courses.  It's the golf course architecture which decides which part of a player's game will be favored, which part will be rewarded. 

Therefore newfound supremacy of length in the top levels of the game is very much an architectural issue.  It's definitely just as much an architecture issue as it is a technology issue.

If you truly believe thick rough and trees worked fine for the best 10% of golfers, would you please let everyone know that.  People listen to you. The game is changing quickly in front of our eyes at the top level, and letting the USGA know there is nothing wrong with trees, rough, and tight fairways on courses meant for the best players in the world would be huge in bringing a balance back into golf at the highest level.

I think you are missing the point. Narrow fairways, harsh rough, trees and water work well to strangle creativity for the best players, but a handful of players can get in around par (which is a terrible measure for difficulty) despite the setup.

I do note that Augusta has leaned into your ideas these past several years....more trees, rough and narrowed fairways. Has the long game been blunted? Winged Foot did the same a few years ago. Was the long game blunted? The winner flew in the face of your theory. Because he didn't go deep is immaterial. The same style of golf was used to win. Smashmouth golf has been proven as the best to win tournaments. To me the issue is more about how do championship courses test recovery play while not demanding a monotonous shot choice and still keeping the courses enjoyable for handicap players. If there is a demand to defend par, the powers that be will (and have in the past) fail at the above.

LACC has been great viewing. A complete success if the USGA doesn't screw with things for the final round.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 12:53:30 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2023, 12:24:50 AM »
The course is brilliant. I wonder what brings people to GCA and gca if they can't see that.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2023, 12:25:06 AM »
Double post
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2023, 04:19:06 AM »
The players are so good, it's hard to setup a course like LACC to defend par...


You setup the course but the weather has such an impact.


If it rains the day before, course is slower, softer, easier but plays longer


If the wind is 15 mph and the course is dry... you get the usual -3 leader after the first round


If it's 20mph plus, nobody breaks par and it takes 6 hours to play the first round


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2023, 06:44:56 AM »

If you truly believe thick rough and trees worked fine for the best 10% of golfers, would you please let everyone know that.  People listen to you. The game is changing quickly in front of our eyes at the top level, and letting the USGA know there is nothing wrong with trees, rough, and tight fairways on courses meant for the best players in the world would be huge in bringing a balance back into golf at the highest level.


That is a complete misunderstanding of my sentiments and I can think you know that.


Yes, length is a bigger factor today than ever before, BECAUSE IT IS SO MUCH EASIER TO HIT THE DRIVER STRAIGHT WHILE SWINGING AT 100% than it used to be.  Architecture cannot correct for that.  Setup can, somewhat, but it is a terrible price to pay when they narrow a place like Shinnecock Hills to uncomfortable levels just so they can host a tournament once every ten years.


Also, note that Augusta National has narrowed its fairways and planted more trees in the past 25 years, but it hasn't much changed the impact of long driving on tournament success.


I don't know why so many people pine for the days when Scott Simpson and Curtis Strange hit it straight and made a bunch of pars.  If you think that was the epitome of golf, we don't have much in common.

John Crowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2023, 11:12:51 AM »
Hard to hear the criticism over the roars accompanying exciting play on an intriguing course!


Right!
This is an athletic competition and the winner will have been the best player over 72 holes. Low score will win.
Par will still be 280. How much will that number mean to the winner?


Golf fans will have been entertained and will have seen one of the finest courses in the U.S.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2023, 12:57:37 PM »
It is not surprising that a few of the players—Fitzpatrick and Koepka most prominently—do not like the number of blind tee shots at LACC. I know that blind shots are a divisive topic (I like them), but is it a valid critique of a course hosting a Major? I would think that it is a good way to test great players (mental imagery and commitment to your line) who also have the benefit of caddies and so much information about the course.


Ira

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2023, 01:05:53 PM »
It is not surprising that a few of the players—Fitzpatrick and Koepka most prominently—do not like the number of blind tee shots at LACC. I know that blind shots are a divisive topic (I like them), but is it a valid critique of a course hosting a Major? I would think that it is a good way to test great players (mental imagery and commitment to your line) who also have the benefit of caddies and so much information about the course.

Ira


As someone else once said, a shot isn't really blind after you've played it once.  On the other hand, I don't like blind shots no matter how many times I play them.  But then I'm not a competitive golfer either.  In my opinion it's not a valid criticism.  Ira says it perfectly to my way of thinking.  Koepka, who seems to be a complainer-type, doesn't surprise me on this point, though Fitzpatrick does.

David Cronan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2023, 01:14:47 PM »
   The racket may have evolved, but the court remains the same. And the game has not suffered.


This is true but the way the court plays today vs. wooden racquet days, has changed dramatically. If you look at tape from, say, Wimbledon finals from the 1970's, note the player returning serve is at the baseline or just a foot behind it. In some cases, I saw players INSIDE the baseline returning serves. Compare that to today where it's not uncommon for a player returning serve to stand over 5 meters behind the baseline.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 03:08:37 PM by David Cronan »

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2023, 01:54:20 PM »

If you truly believe thick rough and trees worked fine for the best 10% of golfers, would you please let everyone know that. People listen to you. The game is changing quickly in front of our eyes at the top level, and letting the USGA know there is nothing wrong with trees, rough, and tight fairways on courses meant for the best players in the world would be huge in bringing a balance back into golf at the highest level.

That is a complete misunderstanding of my sentiments and I can think you know that.

Yes, length is a bigger factor today than ever before, BECAUSE IT IS SO MUCH EASIER TO HIT THE DRIVER STRAIGHT WHILE SWINGING AT 100% than it used to be.  Architecture cannot correct for that.  Setup can, somewhat, but it is a terrible price to pay when they narrow a place like Shinnecock Hills to uncomfortable levels just so they can host a tournament once every ten years.

Also, note that Augusta National has narrowed its fairways and planted more trees in the past 25 years, but it hasn't much changed the impact of long driving on tournament success.

I don't know why so many people pine for the days when Scott Simpson and Curtis Strange hit it straight and made a bunch of pars.  If you think that was the epitome of golf, we don't have much in common.

Tom,

You are correct, Augusta National has done a fantastic job over the past 25 years of preserving the impact on long driving on tournament success. But Augusta has never been a bombers paradise. it is, and always has been, a 2nds shot course that favors ball striking.

Just look at this list of past champions, both old and new, is there a bomber among them? (Gary Player, Ben Crenshaw, Nick Faldo, Ian Woosnam, Bernard Langer, José María Olazábal, Mark O'Meara, Mike Weir, Trevor Immelman, Zach Johnson, Jordan Spieth, Patrick Reed, etc...)

The great part about the Masters, as you mentioned, For as much as the course has evolved, it has not impacted the type of champions it produces. Looking at the most recent run of Masters winners, Over the last 10 Masters a player ranked outside the top 25 in driving distance have won 6 of them, 5 of those 6 ranked outside the top 50.

There are plenty of winners there that don't rank at the top in terms of length.  Length helps, but it's not everything.  While the US Open has become almost entirely about length, the Masters has been able to keep the importance of the approach game at least equal to length over the years.  Their changes have worked. The skills need to win there are still balanced, and you don't have to be a bomber to win.

If we compare the US Open and Masters using Strokes Gained. We find that that from 2004 until today the average winner of the Masters ranks 29th off the tee and 30th in approach. Nearly identical, neither dominates, the skill's needed to win are balanced.

The US Open on the other hand is greatly imbalanced. Over the same period of time, the average winner of the US Open ranks 20th off the tee and 57th in approach. The tournament significantly favors driving and driving distance over approach play.

The Masters is at least trying to keep the game from being dominated by bombers, and fighting to make sure golf's other skills are not drowned out by power and length. And their efforts are actually working.

So yes, Augusta National is a perfect example of a club looking at what's going on and doing what they can to make sure players like Ben Crenshaw and Nick Faldo have a chance to win there again in the future.  I applaud them for it, and wish the USGA would take note.



Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2023, 01:58:00 PM »
Hard to hear the criticism over the roars accompanying exciting play on an intriguing course!


Right!
This is an athletic competition and the winner will have been the best player over 72 holes. Low score will win.
Par will still be 280. How much will that number mean to the winner?


Golf fans will have been entertained and will have seen one of the finest courses in the U.S.
How is this week any different from the 35+ other PGA Tour events on our televisions every Saturday and Sunday?

Take away the USGA banners and how does this tournament look and feel any different from any other LA Open?
It no longer looks or feels unique, it is a US Open in name only.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2023, 02:07:14 PM »
Hard to hear the criticism over the roars accompanying exciting play on an intriguing course!


Right!
This is an athletic competition and the winner will have been the best player over 72 holes. Low score will win.
Par will still be 280. How much will that number mean to the winner?


Golf fans will have been entertained and will have seen one of the finest courses in the U.S.
How is this week any different from the 35+ other PGA Tour events on our televisions every Saturday and Sunday?





Edit. I was too flip. I love all the movement. On the greens and in the fairways. Doesn’t look like a pga tour event to me at all.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 02:23:45 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2023, 03:05:23 PM »
Hard to hear the criticism over the roars accompanying exciting play on an intriguing course!


Right!
This is an athletic competition and the winner will have been the best player over 72 holes. Low score will win.
Par will still be 280. How much will that number mean to the winner?


Golf fans will have been entertained and will have seen one of the finest courses in the U.S.
How is this week any different from the 35+ other PGA Tour events on our televisions every Saturday and Sunday?

Take away the USGA banners and how does this tournament look and feel any different from any other LA Open?
It no longer looks or feels unique, it is a US Open in name only.

Here are some things I see which are distinctly different from a typical tour event:

1.  The rough is more difficult.  The percentage of shots from the rough that stay on the green is very low.  I'm guessing in the 2-5% range, which I would also guess is a lower percentage than the traditional venues of the 70s and 80s.  It may only be 4 inches high, but that bermuda grass looks brutal.  Sure, Muirfield Village was set up that way last month.  Historically, it seems one tour event has a US Open like presentation a few weeks before the major.

2.  The bunkers are more difficult for two different reasons.  The sand is strange.  Somebody said it was a mix of a local desert sand with Augusta white.  The players are unable to control spin and distance well.  In addition, the greenside bunker shots that I've seen players encounter are awkward for one reason or another.  Whatever the reason, whether it's above the hole, or far away, or an uneven lie, the bunker shots are very difficult, with few up and downs.

3.  There are three 275-300 yard holes, which is very unusual.

4.  More players are hitting the big draw this week than a typical event, where the controlled fade is now dominant.

5.  LACC is clearly an excellent course.  Its merits as an elite tournament venue are well worth debating.  One reason why it may not defend par as well as hoped for is the fact there are few greens which are convex and shed balls away.  I think the USGA did a very nice job setting it up.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of this week's tournament so far.  I consider the conventional wisdom that the US Open should be a punishing endurance test to be outdated.  I like it this way, where it's still really hard but yields more fun shots.  I'm predicting Scheffler gets a charge from the eagle on 17 yesterday and it carries through to today.  I think he'll have a good chance of coming out hot today.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2023, 03:11:43 PM »
I forgot one.  I also think there are more "rare play" events in a tournament such as this.  Like the barranca on #6 yields all sorts of different lies and challenges.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2023, 04:51:07 PM »
Can the cup on 18 be reset? The few times I’ve had a putt pop out off the back of the cup (3 times in 100,000 holes) it was the fault of the crew.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2023, 05:12:50 PM »
Watching with my mom yesterday, she really found it more exciting to watch than the old-style US Open. The nice thing, I never had to say “you don’t know how good that was”. She was always perfectly aware. Way more fun seeing a snaker drop in than seeing pitch from just off the green finishing 17 feet away.




And a nice explanation from John Kirk.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 05:16:56 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2023, 06:04:31 PM »
The 3rd fairway landing area is problematic for major tournament play.  That's obvious.  But I wouldn't change it for that one reason.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2023, 07:22:10 PM »
Can the cup on 18 be reset? The few times I’ve had a putt pop out off the back of the cup (3 times in 100,000 holes) it was the fault of the crew.


Fault lies with a group ahead of him. They must have pulled the cup up. USGA repaired the cup.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2023, 07:46:17 PM »
Someone besides God is at fault? Are you sure it wasn’t the marine layer?

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2023, 08:55:38 PM »
After all the whoo haw...it has come down to putting.  Everything.  Doesn't matter where you drive the ball.


And Hicks and Co. are still taking about the par fives yet to be played...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 08:59:03 PM by Craig Sweet »
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2023, 09:51:50 PM »
I think it is wrong for the television broadcast to start putting a camera eight feet away from the winning player as he makes his way around the final couple of holes.  That seems like a very unnatural experience to have somebody mirroring you as you try to make the biggest shots of your life.  The priorities in the world have become corrupted.

Congratulations to Wyndham Clark.  He played a nice round of golf today. 

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brandel vs the USGA setup
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2023, 10:02:51 PM »
I think it is wrong for the television broadcast to start putting a camera eight feet away from the winning player as he makes his way around the final couple of holes.  That seems like a very unnatural experience to have somebody mirroring you as you try to make the biggest shots of your life.  The priorities in the world have become corrupted.

Congratulations to Wyndham Clark.  He played a nice round of golf today.


Yeah, right.  But remember it's all about the media when the media covers just about anything.  Fortunately, Mr. Clark and the others (maybe Reed excepted) seem to accept it as a part of the business.

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