[Ira Fishman]

Questions:


1. Was he planning on using template holes? I assume so but the long lost and now found routing is not detailed enough to ascertain.


2. Did MacKenzie have access to the Raynor routing? If so, did he leave any indicia of why he changed it?


Thanks.


Ira

[MCirba]

Who found it?   

[Ira Fishman]

Ok, I might have sounded too definitive, but Sven found what looks to/might be it. Even if not, my questions still stand. I am curious if there is any contemporaneous evidence about either or both questions (letters, oral histories, club histories, etc.).


Thanks.


Ira

[MCirba]

Ira,

I can ask Anthony Pioppi who is writing a book on Raynor but suspect if he knows those types of details he may want to wait for the book release to unveil them.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I seem to remember in Geoff’s book on Cypress Point that Marion Hollis had the Raynor routing.

[Joshua Pettit]

The Raynor routing was never lost.  The club has always had it, as did Dr. MacKenzie when he took over the project.  MacKenzie left Raynor’s routing largely intact, but iterated on holes 6-14.  I’ve seen 3 or 4 variations of the routing.

Good question whether or not Raynor would have built templates.  The routing maps were just stick figure representations of holes, so impossible to glean his intent from those alone.

[Tim_Weiman]

The Raynor routing was never lost.  The club has always had it, as did Dr. MacKenzie when he took over the project.  MacKenzie left Raynor’s routing largely intact, but iterated on holes 6-14.  I’ve seen 3 or 4 variations of the routing.

Good question whether or not Raynor would have built templates.  The routing maps were just stick figure representations of holes, so impossible to glean his intent from those alone.

Joshua,


Your post touches on an important point. Raynor may have gone no further than the routing and while the routing is obviously very important, it is not all there is to the design. Personally, I’m happy MacKenzie put his imprint on that property and not Raynor.

[Ira Fishman]

The Raynor routing was never lost.  The club has always had it, as did Dr. MacKenzie when he took over the project.  MacKenzie left Raynor’s routing largely intact, but iterated on holes 6-14.  I’ve seen 3 or 4 variations of the routing.

Good question whether or not Raynor would have built templates.  The routing maps were just stick figure representations of holes, so impossible to glean his intent from those alone.

Joshua,


Many thanks.


I just took a look at the reprint of the Fairway magazine article on the Allister MacKenzie Institute site and realized that the graphic of the routing is not the final routing. Is that what you mean by iterating on 6-14?


Ira

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's the thread that Ira references above - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66837.0.html


Perhaps Josh can let us know if the routing the club has matches the routing shown below found on the 1921 Map of the area that was annotated by Charles Cheney.

[MCirba]

Ahhh...now I recall that thread, thanks, Sven.




As to Ira's original question, I think it's safe to assume Raynor would have deployed some form of template holes on the property.   I'm not sure I know a Raynor design where he did not use that approach?   I think a fun exercise might be trying to speculate which holes were intended to be which templates, albeit without us having an actual answer guide (that I'm aware of) to verify our speculation. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Mackenzie may have given us a clue about the 17th hole.  Prize Dogleg? It sounds like Mackenzie may have used it as a template as well.

[Bret Lawrence]

Here's the thread that Ira references above - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66837.0.html


Perhaps Josh can let us know if the routing the club has matches the routing shown below found on the 1921 Map of the area that was annotated by Charles Cheney.

It’s interesting to see how Seventeen-Mile Drive was re-routed to make way for today’s 1st and 14th-18th holes. The original path is in white, the proposed path by Cheney and todays current route is in blue.

[JC Urbina]

Ira,


In my opinion Seth Raynor would have used the now Famous Template Holes at Cypress and they would have been used in the following fashion.


Hole # 1- Valley
Hole # 2- Long
Hole # 3- Redan
Hole # 4- Hogs Back
Hole # 5- Cypress
Hole # 6- Punchbowl
Hole # 7- Short
Hole # 8- Leven
Hole # 9 - Knoll
Hole #10 - Bottle
Hole #11- Narrows
Hole #12- Road Hole
Hole #13- Double Plateau
Hole #14- Alps
Hole #15- Eden
Hole #16- Biarritz
Hole #17- Cape
Hole #18- Home


My dream 18-




What's yours

[Sven Nilsen]

To be clear, on the podcast about the Cheney Map (found here - https://talkingolf.com/episode-37-tgh-37-the-lost-routings-of-cypress-point/), neither Bret nor I jumped to the conclusion that this was actually Raynor's routing, no matter how much Connor tried to get us there. 

There is a ton of circumstantial evidence that suggests that it could be, but nothing definite that says that it has to be.

It is curious to me that after all these years someone is confirming that the club had Raynor's routing the whole time.  Makes one wonder if any of the architects that have consulted with Cypress have been given access to those plans, stick routings or not.

The story has changed a little over the last 20 years, as evidenced by this old thread populated by some early heavyweights from these parts - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1964.0.html.

[Ted Sturges]

Questions:


1. Was he planning on using template holes? I assume so but the long lost and now found routing is not detailed enough to ascertain.


2. Did MacKenzie have access to the Raynor routing? If so, did he leave any indicia of why he changed it?


Thanks.


Ira

Is there an example of a golf course built by Seth Raynor where he DIDN'T use template holes?


TS

[Ira Fishman]

Ted,


That is why I said I assume that he would use templates. But I am hoping someone might know for sure and which ones where. I am in the camp that it is hard to imagine a better course than what MacKenzie designed, but because it seems that he did use substantial parts of Raynor’s routing, it would be a fun exercise to be able imagine what Raynor would have produced. One of my favorite threads is the comparison of the plans that Flynn and Ross did for the CC of York. Two masters approaching the same challenge/opportunity.


Ira

[Charlie Goerges]

Funneled here from the Raynor list thread and I have some questions.


Has anyone talked to Joshua since his post? Is there any indication that an actual drawing created by Raynor exists?


If I understand Sven's find properly, it's the case that the stick-routing map predates the opening of the club and so some believe that it could be based on Raynor's routing? Is there more to it than that?


Obviously the stick routing doesn't fully match reality, but it matches in some ways. I'm just curious what I'm missing.

[Peter Bowman]

Ira,


In my opinion Seth Raynor would have used the now Famous Template Holes at Cypress and they would have been used in the following fashion.


Hole # 1- Valley
Hole # 2- Long
Hole # 3- Redan
Hole # 4- Hogs Back
Hole # 5- Cypress
Hole # 6- Punchbowl
Hole # 7- Short
Hole # 8- Leven
Hole # 9 - Knoll
Hole #10 - Bottle
Hole #11- Narrows
Hole #12- Road Hole
Hole #13- Double Plateau
Hole #14- Alps
Hole #15- Eden
Hole #16- Biarritz
Hole #17- Cape
Hole #18- Home


My dream 18-




What's yours

My dream 18 is definitely CPC as-is.  2 of the best days of my life were the 2 times I played it. 
Your interpretation of Raynor's templates looks fun but I think the property is far too unique and impressive to make 18 templates on it without taking away from its natural appeal.
I'm no expert by any means (yet) but the templates are well-suited to make mundane lands more interesting.
Maybe someone could build your Raynor CPC template on The Golf Club 2019 for simulator play.  Could be fun.
(I love your work, by the way.)

[Brian Finn]

Your interpretation of Raynor's templates looks fun but I think the property is far too unique and impressive to make 18 templates on it without taking away from its natural appeal.
I'm no expert by any means (yet) but the templates are well-suited to make mundane lands more interesting.

I've never played Cypress Point, but obviously have little/no reason to disagree with you. 

Having said that, how would you compare/contrast Fishers Island? 

[Tom_Doak]

The club is working on a new history book.  It will include a blueprint of Raynor’s stick routing (which was all he provided) and a comparison to MacKenzie’s routing.

Those of us who have seen it were sworn to secrecy, but I don’t think the truth will flip the existing narrative.  If anything, all of the above somewhat overstates Raynor’s contribution to the final product.

[David_Tepper]

And don't forget Raynor's map for the Lake Course at Olympic, hanging on the wall in the men's locker room.

[Charlie Goerges]

This was probably already posted elsewhere, but I had come across something similar to what Sven posted above. Looks like a two-sided brochure with different maps on either side.


The thing I noticed is that the routing of hole 5 et al on the full-color side matches what Sven posted above, whereas the map on the black and white side more closely matches reality. Nothing major, just thought it was kind of funny and that it is a weird oversight on the part of the graphic designer.


See below, click on the images to launch in Flickr so you can zoom in if you like (the originals are pretty large, but if you click through, the simple zoom might not get you close enough to read everything, you might need to click download and save the original size to your PC).


Monterey Peninsula Map Page 1 by goerges_family, on Flickr




Monterey Peninsula Map Page 2 by goerges_family, on Flickr

[Charlie Goerges]

...I don’t think the truth will flip the existing narrative.  If anything, all of the above somewhat overstates Raynor’s contribution to the final product.

Honestly, I'm kind of happy to hear that.

[Jackson C]

Your interpretation of Raynor's templates looks fun but I think the property is far too unique and impressive to make 18 templates on it without taking away from its natural appeal.
I'm no expert by any means (yet) but the templates are well-suited to make mundane lands more interesting.

I've never played Cypress Point, but obviously have little/no reason to disagree with you. 

Having said that, how would you compare/contrast Fishers Island?

Brian,


Peter captures my feelings on this well.
Cypress is amazingly beautiful.  And much of it is very sandy.  Perfect site for MacKenzie and his skill set.


Your question on Fishers is good one.  Fishers is amazing and seemingly could not be any different because it is so.
If I have to find distinctions, two I suggest are: a) Fishers is not on a sandy site, so maybe that is a better situation for a Raynor; and b) the beauty and magnificence of Fishers very much the views (of the ocean and being proximite thereto on so many holes), than they are at Cypress.  The inland holes (which are most of the holes) at Cypress are beautiful, sandy, moving, and the surrounds of the trees and vegetation are uniquely Monterrey.

[Peter Bowman]

Your interpretation of Raynor's templates looks fun but I think the property is far too unique and impressive to make 18 templates on it without taking away from its natural appeal.
I'm no expert by any means (yet) but the templates are well-suited to make mundane lands more interesting.

I've never played Cypress Point, but obviously have little/no reason to disagree with you. 

Having said that, how would you compare/contrast Fishers Island?

My life has yet to be blessed with playing Fisher's Island. 

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