PGA to merge with LIV

[Tim Leahy]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I'll just go with what Brandel said yesterday and sums up my feelings:

"[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.72)]“Is it going to bring dishonor to the sport? Is it going to jeopardize the integrity of the sport going forward? How can you square your involvement with an entity that is so involved with philanthropy and charity while you have a country and source of the funds that is the most misogynistic, is the most anti-semitic, that doesn’t have freedom of speech, that doesn’t freedom of expression, that doesn’t have freedom of religion, that tries to silence, kill or dismember members of the media that speak out in opposition to their government,” Chamblee said. “Are any of these going to be removed, ameliorated, going forward? It’s not just the money. I’ve always said that they’re trying to buy the success of the West and then pretend they are surrogate to the success. The enormous success of the West at least in my view comes about because of the particular freedoms that are the foundation of the West."[/color]
 
The Saudis are NOT our friends. We are their customers.

[Jeff Segol]

I could be wrong about this, but I get the impression that Rory, from a sportsman's point of view, was offended by the idea that pro golfers could get money for playing a golf tournament based on something other than where they finished in the tournament standings, such as LIVs contracts with its players provided. I could be wrong, because my understanding is that appearance fees were very common in Europe, and I would assume that Rory would have received them.


That said, it seems to me that, having stood up for Monahan's scheduling change for designated events, which was supposedly needed because of the competition with LIV, he probably feels substantially hung out to dry. This whole question really goes back to Seve refusing to meet the PGA tour minimum tournament mandate, and Norman also disputing why he should be required to play certain tournaments, and essentially advocating for a system where the supposed top players got more money for playing less often. If Rory now says basically "I want mine" like the LIV guys got, the end result could be a lot of PGA Tour events with not very good fields, harming the TV product. McGinley also pointed out that maybe the Saudis would want the top US players playing more often in Europe and the Middle East, which means they'd be playing in the middle of the night in the US. The end result of all of this might be killing off the golden goose, or maybe the Saudi blood money will just replace what was coming from the US television networks.

[Mike Wagner]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

[Steve_Lovett]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

Slippery slope, best to be avoided in this forum.

[Mike Wagner]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

Slippery slope, best to be avoided in this forum.

I understand where you're coming from Steve, but given the number of posts with very negative descriptions of a former president, and the political nature from which people come at this topic, I find out completely fair as to get where someone's coming from.

[George Pazin]

George,


   You are smarter than this.

I guess not. Did I miss something while working, did Brandel resign? That's the only way I'd say he stood by his guns. Criticising from within isn't standing by your guns, imho, but as another poster on this very thread used to say, that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary.


All I said from the beginning was, it's professional golf. It's not life or death. All of us have had much more experience with life or death than pro golf.


Having said that, I would caution Brandel not to walk into any Saudi embassies.....

[Michael Dugger]

Professional golf just let a lot more foxes in the hen house.  We can only pray they survive it.


I heard a somewhat interesting bit on the radio today about how Saudi Arabia, as a country, recognizes they need to diversify their economy. 


I guess Saudi Arabia has a looming health crisis on their hands.  It's a very sedentary culture, a lot of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.


So, golf addresses both of these issues.  Pry your way into a different business venture, all the while investing in a sport that can serve as a way to get their people up and moving. 


Who's going to be the signature architect of the Saudi Royal Family, I wonder?  Paging Greg Norman!!!


My main concern here is when you are the big boss (like John Kav.) then you get to call all the shots.  What happens when MBS does not appreciate what some of the players are saying about such and such?  Are they going to meet the bone saw too?


I think everyone understands that money talks, but this feels a lot like doing a deal with the Cartel or the Mob.  Once you are in, you are in for good, just like Better Call Saul.
 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Monahan and his people must have been petrified over discovery and the discovery depositions coming up in the anti-trust suits.

I think it was just getting very, very expensive. I've heard they've already racked up $50M in legal fees, and it's got many months (years) left. When your opposition has effectively unlimited funds… they could bleed the PGA Tour dry.

Dunne is the inspiration for Bobby Axelrod from the Showtime show "Billions." He is seen as a nice guy by many.

[Kalen Braley]

Erik

I love that show, but it raises a few interesting questions given what Axelrod's character actually is on the show.

I know Dunne doesn't technically work for PGATour as a board member, but some of the stuff in this GD article didn't age well...

"Dunne said he never initiates any mention of the Sept. 11 attacks when he discusses LIV Golf with players, most of whom were children when the attacks took place. (Fifteen of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.) But if a player asks about it, he will say he would not want to be in business withthe Saudi oligarchs who are bankrolling LIV."

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimmy-dunne-pga-tour-new-power-broker-liv-golf-battle

[Wayne_Kozun]

Professional golf just let a lot more foxes in the hen house.  We can only pray they survive it.


I heard a somewhat interesting bit on the radio today about how Saudi Arabia, as a country, recognizes they need to diversify their economy. 


I guess Saudi Arabia has a looming health crisis on their hands.  It's a very sedentary culture, a lot of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.


So, golf addresses both of these issues.  Pry your way into a different business venture, all the while investing in a sport that can serve as a way to get their people up and moving. 


Who's going to be the signature architect of the Saudi Royal Family, I wonder?  Paging Greg Norman!!!

And Gary Player to whip them all into shape!

[Wayne_Kozun]

With Al-Rumayyan as Chairman of the new commercial entity wouldn’t he be able to fire Monahan as CEO? If I’m a bettor I would say a clash will ensue between the two of them.

Technically the board would have to fire Monahan, not just the Chairman.  But the Chairman often can shove around the board members.
Just like how the PGA Tour policy board could vote this down if all five players plus one other policy board member (the PGA of America rep?) vote against the merger.  The PGA of America may not like the fact that now the PGA Tour runs the Ryder Cup in Europe due to their ownership of the European Tour.

[Steve Salmen]

Bobby Axelrod is loosely based on Steve Cohen, not Jimmy Dunne.

[Mike Hendren]

In other golf news I carded 88 today with a triple at the last.


Bogey

[Daryl David]

Can the volunteers that work PGA events finally organize and get paid like everyone else? Given the new profit motive what are you really doing but saving the Saudis money.

Excellent idea. This is in no way a charity enterprise. For profit all the way. And how it should have always been.

[jeffwarne]

I guess all those Golf Channel pundits who ripped LIV as immoral human rights violators will be resigning their jobs now..........

Honestly, I haven’t been a fan of how Brandel has covered some things. But I like Brandel himself.


I hope he comes in today a rips this, standing by his guns.  He’d probably lose his job, but it would say a lot about him

I don't know Brandel at all, only through occasional viewings of GC, but to say I haven't been of fan of how he's covered some things would be quite an understatement for me. To call him sanctimonious would be an insult to sanctimonious people. To call him a pretentious know-it-all would be an insult to pretentious know-it-alls.


To call him....


Well, you get the picture. I don't know how he doesn't resign immediately, assuming he has any sort of conscience. I do know I wouldn't walk into any Saudi embassies, if I were him.

I'm struggling to see why you think Brandel should resign.
The one who should resign("if he has a concience") is Jay Monahan REGARDLESS of whether or not this is a good(or more likely desperate) decision for the Tour.
If for no other reason than the money that was left on the table for players who heeded his warnings/advice and stayed loyal.


Interesting that Norman kicked his arse, yet Monahan is still in while Norman is nudged aside.


Surely this move emboldenes future wanna be competitors to this tour.
All his threats/promises were empty.
Consequences for defecting?-nope
Moral high ground? Nope-funny how that changes when they cut you in.


His double talk "empirical" "framework" jibberish press conference was embarrassing.


Clearly it is not the players tour with three suits making deals the players find out about afterwards.

[Daryl David]

I guess all those Golf Channel pundits who ripped LIV as immoral human rights violators will be resigning their jobs now..........

Honestly, I haven’t been a fan of how Brandel has covered some things. But I like Brandel himself.


I hope he comes in today a rips this, standing by his guns.  He’d probably lose his job, but it would say a lot about him

I don't know Brandel at all, only through occasional viewings of GC, but to say I haven't been of fan of how he's covered some things would be quite an understatement for me. To call him sanctimonious would be an insult to sanctimonious people. To call him a pretentious know-it-all would be an insult to pretentious know-it-alls.


To call him....


Well, you get the picture. I don't know how he doesn't resign immediately, assuming he has any sort of conscience. I do know I wouldn't walk into any Saudi embassies, if I were him.

I'm struggling to see why you think Brandel should resign.
The one who should resign("if he has a concience") is Jay Monahan REGARDLESS of whether or not this is a good(or more likely desperate) decision for the Tour.
If for no other reason than the money that was left on the table for players who heeded his warnings/advice and stayed loyal.


Interesting that Norman kicked his arse, yet Monahan is still in while Norman is nudged aside.


Surely this move emboldenes future wanna be competitors to this tour.
All his threats/promises were empty.
Consequences for defecting?-nope
Moral high ground? Nope-funny how that changes when they cut you in.


His double talk "empirical" "framework" jibberish press conference was embarrassing.


Clearly it is not the players tour with three suits making deals the players find out about afterwards.

It’s what’s it’s always been since Beamon and Nicklaus and the others forced the changes. Profits, profits, profits. Just play better. Rory said it correctly. Just play better and you will get rich. No matter where the dollars come from, it doesn’t matter. You deposit them and then they are clean. Not sure there is any problem with that.

[Ira Fishman]

In other golf news I carded 88 today with a triple at the last.


Bogey

Pianos have a certain ineluctabilty.


Ira

[Edward Glidewell]

I guess not. Did I miss something while working, did Brandel resign? That's the only way I'd say he stood by his guns. Criticising from within isn't standing by your guns, imho, but as another poster on this very thread used to say, that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary.


All I said from the beginning was, it's professional golf. It's not life or death. All of us have had much more experience with life or death than pro golf.


Having said that, I would caution Brandel not to walk into any Saudi embassies.....

While I don't really care about Brandel Chamblee one way or another, I'm not sure I follow your logic here. The Golf Channel isn't owned by the PGA Tour.

[Tim Martin]

I don't see why Brandel should resign either but believe he will ultimately be forced out at the Golf Channel. Based on the initial interview I saw with him it doesn’t appear that he’s going to change his position.

[Jeff Segol]

My question is how lightly will the Tour now have to tread with Rory and other stars who didn't take the LIV money, and appear to have been sold down the river by Monahan? Historically, the dispute that led to this situation really started with Seve's refusal to join the PGA Tour, because of the minimum participation requirements, and Greg Norman's chafing over that requirement as well. He's basically argued throughout that the biggest names should get more money for playing less. But doing that undercuts the tournament sponsors, and the TV contracts. Will the whole idea of designated events now go bye-bye, to appease Rory? Also, my understanding is that while the PGA Tour prohibits paying appearance fees to players for entering its tournaments, that's been permitted in Europe and elsewhere. Will Rory now insist on getting paid at least some of the time to show up, to make up for the money he didn't get from LIV? What's that going to mean for TV revenues, and sponsorships, if the end result of this is to dilute the fields as much, or more, than did having two tours.


I also have to think that Koepka's success had at least a minor role in this. The undercurrent of the criticism of LIV has been that the guys playing there, with the exception of Cam Smyth, were doing so because they were worried they couldn't compete on the regular tour, due to injury (Koepka, DeChambeau), age (Mickelson, DJ) or simply not having the games (everyone else). Koepka getting health, finish 2nd at Augusta, then winning the PGA, dumped cold water on that narrative, even though the Netflix series showed he probably went to LIV because he was worried about his prospects, due to injury.


I'm not sure this whole thing isn't going to kill the golden goose for the players, in the long term.

[Wayne_Kozun]

While I don't really care about Brandel Chamblee one way or another, I'm not sure I follow your logic here. The Golf Channel isn't owned by the PGA Tour.

The PGA Tour could say something like - unless you get rid of Brandel we are going to make your life difficult.  Sure you still have several years left on your contract with us, but we will strictly follow the letter of the law on the contract and cut back access to players, facilities, etc, unless it is specifically allowed in the contract.  And when the contract is up there is zero chance that we will renew it with you.  And we will put pressure on Comcast, your corporate owner, as well.

[Pete_Pittock]

and what took Congress so long. A bill has been introduced to cancel the PGA Tour's tax-exempt status.
https://sports.yahoo.com/congress-tees-bill-stripping-pga-191828110.html

[Tom_Doak]

Who's going to be the signature architect of the Saudi Royal Family, I wonder?  Paging Greg Norman!!!
 

This is a very open question, and to my surprise, one that has not been addressed at all in a forum that purports to be about golf course architecture, and not about the PGA TOUR.


I am one of many who have been approached about building courses in Saudi Arabia.  I have never discussed money with any of the callers -- they tend to work through intermediaries -- but I am led to believe I could charge 5x or 10x my current fee for a design in the USA. So, I would say that golf course architects have much more "skin in the game" than other posters here.


I don't know which architects have rejected offers -- I have heard some things second-hand, but that's just gossip.  So far, the guys who have taken the jobs are mostly player-architects who signed up for LIV:  Norman, Mickelson, Sergio.  I've heard David Kidd is doing something there, too.  Jack Nicklaus has done at least one course in Saudi Arabia, even though he didn't want to sign on to the LIV effort.  But how many of you have turned down millions of dollars to participate?


For me, it is not really about the politics.  I think that the Saudis genuinely want to turn their country into more of a tourist destination, and believe that golf would help achieve that goal -- the same as many of my other clients.  My wife and kids would worry about me, but I expect I'd be treated like royalty, I don't have any worries there. What does hold me back is how they treat the labor, and whether I could ask any of my associates to spend a year or two of their lives going there for this cause, even if they also got paid 5x or 10x normal.  I don't want to put them on the spot like that.  And, luckily, there is plenty of work for us elsewhere right now.

[Steve Lapper]

George,


   You are smarter than this.

I guess not. Did I miss something while working, did Brandel resign? That's the only way I'd say he stood by his guns. Criticising from within isn't standing by your guns, imho, but as another poster on this very thread used to say, that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary.


All I said from the beginning was, it's professional golf. It's not life or death. All of us have had much more experience with life or death than pro golf.


Having said that, I would caution Brandel not to walk into any Saudi embassies.....

George,


 Falling on his petard, or resigning is hardly Brandel's M.O.  He'll admit when he's wrong, yet a resignation would be a capitulation....especially as he still retains an effective megaphone. His job is analyze pro golf and having controversial opinions actually helps attract eyeballs. Unlike a Tucker Carlson who blatantly lied most every time his lips were moving, Brandel doesn't trade in falsehoods. . I strongly doubt (but could be wrong) that The PGA Tour would try to bully Comcast and that they would fire him for his professional, if strong, opinions.


 That said, I do think he won't be entering any Saudi embassies anytime soon...Good advice!

  PS...In full disclosure, he's a partner of mine in a soon-to-be launched golf entertainment company. I know, and respect, him quite a bit.