The 17th Pine Valley...should the old fairway return

[Mark Fedeli]

Archie, I just wonder if it wasn't all we think it might've been cracked up to be?


A significantly longer carry (and slightly uphill?) to a smaller target with more trouble to worry about for imperfect shots — was that worth the reward? Especially when the left side safely gathered balls? Surely there's a reason it barely lasted more that ten years, if that. I find it hard to believe the membership would've let a little hose get in the way if they truly valued it. To quote morons everywhere: "I'm just asking questions!"

[Charlie Goerges]

Archie, I just wonder if it wasn't all we think it might've been cracked up to be?


A significantly longer carry (and slightly uphill?) to a smaller target with more trouble to worry about for imperfect shots — was that worth the reward? Especially when the left side safely gathered balls? Surely there's a reason it barely lasted more that ten years, if that. I find it hard to believe the membership would've let a little hose get in the way if they truly valued it. To quote morons everywhere: "I'm just asking questions!"

They’re valid considerations Mark, but aside from “it’s original” there’s also opening up one of the narrower corridors on the course. It may not have been fairway for long, but it was open for a very long time.

[archie_struthers]

 


So, here's my litany of GCA sins regarding one of my favorite places on earth.


I hated  the new bunkers built on the top of the 4th hole , right side. Still do. Not a construction issue as  they seamlessly sit there, if you didn't know you would think them original. I missed the quirk of the short side angle that was removed for many players.


Didn't like the redo of the 12th hole...thought that they could have just taken all the trees left of the fairway and exposed all those great bunkers, then  let the bombers make some mental errors


Wasn't sold on the back tee on #4  (love # 6/18 new tees) on what I think may be the best hole on the course. Realized that I would have liked it at 25 years old when I could hit further, so my bad there


Arguably the GOAT of superintendents, Dick Bator, built an eyebrow that protected the DA (#10)  from washouts when big storms rolled thru South Jersey  ...it saved the bunker but we lost the fear of spinning it back off the green or putting into it


Love the tree culling and creation of the skyline left green on number nine...it's awesome...that left green on this hole is one of the best anywhere ...so much to think about on the second shot ...now it's absolutely breathtaking too!




As to Mark's question I would reply


the re-introduction of the old fairway on #17 would  or could create the confusion that Pine Valley often exerts , and the resultant loss of swing that follows, as one ponders how to play that tee shot . Today you just rip it down the left side

[Josh Bills]

Here's one more aerial I found from a USGA Green Section Bulletin from November of 1923.  Looks like a joined fairway at that time for sure. 




I have not played PV but it would appear if the fairways were joined, as long as you got the right distance, the fairway would be one of the widest on the course. 

[Mark Fedeli]

Fantastic photo. Best one yet. And a great angle too. The pros and cons are clear. Shame about that hose.

[MCirba]

That aerial is too cool.

[archie_struthers]

 


Great new picture..gives a clear perspective ! What a great fairway to restore if they so choose.

[Charlie Goerges]

Maybe you've answered this Archie, but is there any advantage to coming in from that area? Which way does the green slope from the current fairway?

[archie_struthers]

 




Charlie, never had a chance to see that shot but if the fairway was canted right to left it would have been a tougher shot than what exists today. The green slopes right to left so anything coming from the right is a tougher shot. Also any shot from the right side would have more chance to skip deep.  That back left bunker would be in play a lot more if the new?old fairway was rebuilt.







Really like it , would love if it came back !

[archie_struthers]

 


Just don't think Crump would ever opt for a more confined space on a tee shot if there was an alternative. The golf course is so wide in general that th extended fairway, if reinstituted would be more in keeping with the original design theory. Gotta brush up on who exactly did that hole as I'm at a loss right now without drinking anything   If it's a Crump original idea even more reason to rebuild it!

[MCirba]

Archie,


As memory serves from those 1912, early 1913 articles Tillinghast penned (that my buddy Bausch found) about PV prior to Colt's visit, holes 1-4 and 17-18 had already been routed with conceptual ideas around 5, 6, and 7 that were altered somewhat later.