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Matt_Ward

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2003, 05:02:35 PM »
George P and Brian G and billig:

The rough height at Dunluce when I played it this past September was extremely high. There was little transition points between the finely cut fairways and the hay-like conditions that were soooooooooooo close at hand. You also had to pay strict attention if your ball even bounded near the high grass because it could disappear faster than a mole in a covert operation! ;D

If you missed the fairway on a FEW holes by a scant margin it's likely the options were limited to:

1). SW or PW back to fairway

2). Re-load because of lost ball

I mentioned that a course of such supreme stature (I would have it among my personal 10-15 courses I have ever played) doesn't need to have bowling-alley type fairways because the setting and the nature of the holes goes far beyond that easy solution of growing grass that HIGH on a number of holes. This was rough no les, if not more so, than the toughest stuff I have encountered when playing Bethpage Black prior to the time when they renovated the turf.

When you factor in the daily wind conditions and terrain of Dunluce you don't need much more for the scores to pile up high. I guess in suggesting that the fairways be "tweaked" just a tad has led some misinformed souls to believe that I am advocating fairways the width of the 1st hole at TOC. That is so laughable that it doesn't require a response.

The driving element at both RCD and Dunluce is simply too GOOD to be manipulated by hay-like grass that infringes upon the playing areas reminiscent of what was done at Carnoustie for the '99 BO. The designs have enough strength to simply provide a fair opportunity for the player without resorting to gimmicks IMHO.

DPL11:

Let me clarify something you may not know. I was invited, along with members of the GolfWeek panel (i.e. Mike Cirba, Joe Martin and Bill Vostinak) to play Hidden Creek. If the course was not prepared to have raters come by then don't invite them -- end of story. I rate based on what I observed. I'm also a bit smarter than you and the homers may think to understand that some elements of the golf course may not be at "peak" levels. Those elements are often included in any review.

Nonetheless, I base what I wrote on what I played. It's no different than having critics go to a Broadway show and assess what they saw. It's not my responsibility to know when the course is ready -- that's up to management.

Regarding one round of golf -- you will find that other reviewers whether they be Mr. Whitten, Mr. Klein, Mr. Doak, et al -- base opinions from one-time visits as well. I also
said -- you must have forgotten -- that I do make revisits to properties because matters / opinions can change depending upon what takes place from the first visit to the next one. Golf courses are an evolving entitty and one must not have a close mind that matters can change -- up or down. I have even included such reviews in Jersey Golfer (i.e. NJ National, to name just one example). Given your statement -- how many visits would you want to happen before a course is ratable. 5? 10? 50? 100?

What's "ridiculous" (to use your word) is the idea that MEMBERS OF THE COURSE IN QUESTION have no conflict of interest in the assessment of their own course ::). These rabbit-ear gents than have the audacity to question the motives of the person doing the rating because the CONCLUSIONS reached by a disinterested observer do not match WORD-FOR-WORD their own conclusions. Please spare me all this anger when the reality is that people have opinions on golf courses all the time and the "process" followed here was one that takes place for Hidden Creek and other courses I visit. I go when the courses say they are ready -- simple as that. Keep in mind that when observers do come to play they will make up their own minds based on that visit. If you don't like my opinions so be it. Like I said you were personally asked to participate in the next Jersey Golfer ratings taking place in '04. Somehow you conveniently forgot to highlight this fact -- I guess bomblasting Ward is far easier than to mention this "open-minded" element. You see I don't have rabbit
ears like so many others -- the invitation still holds.

Happy holidays from the "blowhard" ... ;D  

DPL11

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2003, 05:33:42 PM »
Matt,

I'm over the whole issue. I stated my case, and really don't care anymore. The important thing to me, is I get to enjoy a fine C&C design that I think is wonderful.

If you care to compare your eye to a practicing architect like Tom Doak, or a very well studied Brad Klein, thats fine.
I never forgot that I asked to participate in your NJ ratings poll. I would still like to participate since I see and play many NJ courses due to my business. Even though you think that I purposly negated this fact, I never thought it was relavent to the topic we were discussing.

To beat an old saying to death, "we agree to disagree".

Sorry to everyone to get off the topic of RCD and Dunluce.

Have a wonderful holiday.
DPL11

TEPaul

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2003, 05:56:50 PM »
GeorgeP said;

"I have to admit, it's not surprising that we're picking on Matt for his stance on driving, but it is kind of funny that he's defending greater width & we're still picking on him!"

George:

I don't think it's just funny. One has to look at the various holes of RPR's Dunluce course and they will understand that some of those holes simply don't have the topographical opportunity for fairway width. Other holes do have more opportunity for width. It just so happens that a few of the holes of Dunluce play through some pretty dramatic and pretty narrow topography on either side. Even if they wanted more width on a few of those holes they couldn't get it. I do remember first going along #9, I think it was, and thinking this fairway is really narrow and then I looked at the huge parallel topograhy on either side of a narrow fairway corridor and I realized there's really very little they could do about the fairway narrowness in there. There's a couple more holes at Dunluce like that. It's just the way it is. Matt's right it does require some pretty demanding driving. That's obviously the way it is and the way it's always been and that's probably the best reason Dunluce doesn't really need any of Matt's 'fairway width tweaking'!

Matt_Ward

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2003, 08:31:22 PM »
George P:

Your point clearly highlights how ironic it is. I never intimated that Dunluce needed to be widened by any significant amount. There is enough room on a few of the critical holes where a gentle tweaking of a few yards on either side would work. In addition, it's important to have rough that allows for some type of play -- I don't think the limited options I outlined previously are very good if all you have left is a SW or PW punch out or a lost ball scenario.

I am a big fan of both RCD and Dunluce, however, I see the former set up in much more realistic way than I do with the former. You can make driving the ball a top priority -- which I favor --but one cannot overdose the demands to a level that borders on what one saw at Carnoustie at the '99 BO -- a course of the quality of Dunluce doesn't need to be bolstered by such a contrivance of steroid induced hay! ;D

DPL11:

When time allows let me know where you think Hidden Creek fits into the totality of NJ golf? You can send me your info offline if you prefer. Do you believe the course is in the state's top ten? Your feedback is most welcomed and appreciated. Happy holidays to you and the all the folks at HC! ;)

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2003, 08:41:43 PM »
Matt Ward.

I thought you said you were coming back to Hidden Creek to see what you missed the first time.  Have you already been back?  With all the friends you've made at HC, how are you going to get an invite to play?

It's funny how you turned a thread where hp@hc is criticizing your views on some Irish courses into a bash on Hidden Creek and yet somehow duck the blowhard label.  I guess you're still completely ignorant on how insignificant your background is compared to hp@hc - you don't know who he is.  Once again, we're laughing at you, not with you.

Not only that, HP@HC hasn't made any comments about Hidden Creek at this thread, and again you go out of your way to defend your rating, which is your opinion of course.

We all know you don't take seriously the input of others in your golf ratings, so don't say you're an "all-inclusive, warm and fuzzy kind of guy", we all know better.

Then there is this gem of a quote by Matt Ward

     "Then SS1 further snipes about some "hidden agenda" being involved. How sad and utterly predictable. When the golf course review doesn't match up with all the fawning and hype then shoot the messenger. "

Matt, you got it backwards, the rating by Golf Magazine didn't go down to the level of your review.  Not only that, but the Golf Magazine ranking and review by others occured after your article.  I guess no one read your review  ;D


Finally, I heard a couple of rumors?  Word is you were late the day you played Hidden Creek and your group teed off with out you?  Is this true?  How did you rate the holes you missed, by driving them in a cart?  This review you did gets shadier and shadier the more we learn.   ???
« Last Edit: December 01, 2003, 08:46:57 PM by SS1 »

TEPaul

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2003, 09:21:10 PM »
Matt Ward asked:

"When time allows let me know where you think Hidden Creek fits into the totality of NJ golf?"

Matt:

You asked DPL11 not me but if you were to ask me I'd say Hidden Creek is a wonderful new addition to New Jersey golf--period!  ;)

As for details of Hidden Creek and it's architecture that's worth reporting on.

 

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2003, 10:11:16 PM »
Matt,

A primary reason why I think Dunluce is a stern test of driving is the number of holes which are either dog legs or the tee box is set off at an angle. When looking at fourteen holes that have a driver as an option: Holes 1, 12, 15, 17, and 18 play straight away. The other nine holes are angled so that it is possible to either drive through the fairway or hit a shot along the side of the fairway in the rough. Also the fairways narrow as they approach the greens. So length is not always rewarded. Accuracy is rewarded.

Matt_Ward

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2003, 12:10:28 PM »
billig:

I don't doubt the holes bend but you need to focus on what I mentioned -- the grade scale of the rough at Dunluce goes from fairway to jungle in a very brief manner. There is literally no transition on a few holes -- clearly there are others where this situation is less so.

I don't mind fairways being narrow but a transition scheme needs to be a bit more flexible than fairway to hayfields -- aka Carnoustie ('99 BO Open). That was my point.

SS1:

I went out and played the holes in question when the group I was with finished playing. The only holes I missed were the 1st and 2nd -- the group was on the 3rd hole as I arrived. What's "shady" is your inane contempt for any person who doesn't fawn over what you as a MEMBER want them to say. Last I checked this is the United States -- not the former Soviet Union. If you don't like my review that's your prerogative -- but you have little credibility, in my mind, to say otherwise given your vested interest as a member.

What you can't argue out of is the fact that as a member you have a conflict of interest -- pure and simple. In addition, other people have come to rate the course and I would ask you to ask a few of them if they truly believe Hidden Creek is among the 100 best courses in the USA? I guess you believe otherwise but I have played more than a fair share of those courses that are truly deserving to be at that high level and I don't see Hidden Creek being one of them -- notwithstanding what Golf Magazine says. I know other raters have posted as such on GCA their feelings on Hidden Creek. I can tell you categorically that the course I played is not in the top ten in the Garden State. Why? The bar for competition in NJ is very high and the competition is THAT good. I don't doubt, and I have never said, that Hidden Creek is not a fine addition to the NJ golf scene and a fine design by Crenshaw & Coore -- just because I don't believe it merits a top 100 placement doesn't mean that a think the course is dogfood. Unfortunately, you have taken my comments to mean something that I have not said or implied. I would suggest better reading glasses.

I also mentioned that if the club would like me to return and play it again I'm game (Ian has contacted me regarding
that) -- and as I have mentioned countless times (you may have glossed over it ::)) I do make return visits and when necessary print updates on what has happened since a first visit. Some times the return visit merely reinforces what was seen from the first visit -- sometimes it changes for both positive and less than positive reasons. Those updated visits when warranted have been printed in Jersey Golfer (i.e. NJ National, to name just one example).

I'm not going to dignify your "blowhard" charge because you don't know me and you are completely clueless on the background I possess in golf as a journalist. If you don't think my opinions matter why waste the time in challenging them. Simple as that.

P.S. I do value the opinions of "disinterested" observers and they do participate in surveys of Jersey golf courses during our bi-ennial ratings for Jersey Golfer.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2003, 12:39:43 PM »


Why is it that Matt Ward gets attacked when he gives opinions.  I admire him because he plays the courses and goes on the record.  If i disagree, so what.  

Matt-Was your view of HC any different than that of the other raters you played with that day?  What did they like that you did not?

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2003, 06:46:48 AM »
Matt.

How do you know that I don't know you  :P

Matt_Ward

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2003, 06:43:58 PM »
Hamilton Hearst:

The people I played with that are raters from GolfWeek shared the same conclusions I had regarding HC. Unfortunately, because I said the course is not a top 100 course in my opinion -- I am attacked by people who have a direct connection to the club. Nothing like being impartial -- right? I would dare say that the golf scene in NJ is extremely competitive and for any new course to break into the top ten in the state is a tremendous accomplishment -- that's enough of a high bar before one can then say a course is worthy of top 100 status for the entire USA. I just don't see HC as being that good -- but it doesn't mean the course is bad. I've said in my review that the course is a solid double -- using a baseball metaphor -- it's just not a home run. Nothing more -- nothing less.

SS1:

You may know me by name and even thru some sort of introduction but you don't know me well enough to judge my golf rating credentials as being inadequate or coming from someone who is a novice. I reviewed HC in an honest manner and I even mentioned how I do return visits when matters arise that necessitate such things. If you don't like my opinion -- so be it -- I'm not losing any sleep over it and it's likely neither are you. Enjoy the holidays ... ;)


Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2003, 07:27:20 AM »
Matt.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem.  THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT HIDDEN CREEK OR YOUR RATING OF IT.  YOU'RE THE ONE WHO KEEPS BRINGING IT UP.  PLEASE STOP.  HIDDEN CREEK CAN BE DISCUSSED IN ANOTHER THREAD.

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOUR ABSURD COMMENTS TO HP@HC AND THE FACT <emphasis added> THAT YOU ARE LOOKING ABSURDLY SILLY IN YOUR RESPONSES TO HP@HC.  This is because your credentials are not sufficient to tell HP@HC he is wrong.  

You really need to get off the Hidden Creek theme.  Why do you insist on bringing this thread about Irish courses back to Hidden Creek.  Try and focus on what I'm saying.

Thank you.

Matt_Ward

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2003, 01:43:44 PM »
SS1:

You seem hell bent on turning everything into a pedanc argument and I am tooooo weary to continue down this dead end path.

My only comment is that you don't know my golf credentials for you to make broad assertions about them. I never minimized or downgraded what hp@hc has seen. We just have different opinions on what constitutes superior golf.

I started this thread on RCD and Portrush and I simply stated that a gentle tweaking of the fairways and rough density at Dunluce would only serve to enhance one of the supreme golf courses in the world. Please try to keep that in mind and if you have anything ELSE to add you can contact me direct offline or even call me. If you know me THAT well you can get my phone # I'm sure.

Happy holidays ... ;)

matt

matt

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2003, 04:07:46 PM »
Matt.

A truly incredible performance.  I tell you for 3 consecutive post that the topic of this thread is not Hidden Creek, and you have the balls to lecture me for straying off topic.

For the last time, it doesn't matter what your credentials are (yet they are known), you don't stack up to hp@hc in this area, you should really let this topic go too.  

Brian_Gracely

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2003, 10:52:33 AM »
Just a few pictures of the rough at RPGC.  


This is about 5 yards off the fairway on #9.


This gives a better perspective on how close to the fairway the long rough starts.  

I was ok with the length of the rough and width of the fairways, but it could be very frsutrating to lose a ball on some of the blind (at least from the perspective of seeing the ball come to rest) holes when it could be 1" into the rough.  I can't tell you how many balls I found within that first 12" off the fairway.

hp@hc

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2003, 09:33:24 AM »
Matt Ward

After staying away from this thread for a reason ::), I have popped back in to read the dialogue between you and SS1.

I think you need to "tweak" your postings ;D, because you repeat the same drivel time after time and NEVER take into account what others may have to bring to the table.  I agree with SS1, you head straight for "Hidden Creek is a solid double, nothing more, nothing less" if you even sight SS1 on the thread, despite the fact that it is NOT the topic under discussion >:(

And by the way, as a member of RPGC, I think I am more qualified to speak of the fairway width than you, after your paltry 1 round. You frequently lambaste those on this website that "don't have the 17 years of experience" that you possess, yet you attack my credibility on this issue, knowing full well I have stated that I am a member there. I have played thousands of rounds since I was a child, and never once felt I was playing a course that squeezed me too much.  Is'nt it possible, just possible, that you hit it a little wayward, or were the subject of some poor luck (god knows why the Golfing Gods would curse you ;)) on the ONE day you played the course, and thus have a negative vibe in your head about the severity of the rough and the proximity of the high grass the the fairways edge.

No-one like a whiner - grow up and take your medicine

Oh, and have a Great Christmas,
Love from the North of Ireland

hp@hc

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2003, 10:41:11 PM »
Matt - silenced at last :-*

Matt_Ward

Re:The ultimate "driving" experience
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2003, 11:42:26 PM »
hp@hc:

I've enjoyed our "friendly" banter. You have your opinion and I have mine. Nuff said.

Happy holidays to you and yours ...

 :-* :-* :-*

matt

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